Quiver Killer Binding Mount Inserts


This post by WildSnow.com blogger  

We’ve always had a ski quiver that rivaled the arrow selection of a Shoshone hunter. And never enough bindings for them all. So using different skis frequently involves time consuming binding swaps. Hence, I’ve always been interested in binding attachment “insert” systems such as the inserts K2 provided for a few seasons in their telemark skis. Thing is, with the vast combination of binding models and boot sizes, no commercial insert system could work that well at this juncture in binding and ski design. Enter the aftermarket.

Binding inserts for backcountry skis.

Quiver Killer inserts installed for Dynafit backcountry skiing binding toe unit.

Quiver Killer makes and sells a facile do-it-yourself insert system. After doing an install myself, conclusion is if you’re handy with tools and have a functional workbench system you can put inserts in skis. But the process is probably a 7 on the 1-10 DIY scale, so my advice is give your insert project to a professional ski mechanic unless you’re used to doing things like binding mounts yourself. Follow along.

Backcountry skiing binding inserts.

The inserts arrive with a selection of fasteners for your type of bindings. Quiver Killler's data for different binding/fastener sets is ever expanding, but in my case I had a few hardware store trips to get what I needed for my Dynafits.

Backcountry skiing binding inserts.

If you don't already have binding screw holes in your ski, first step is to drill a set of accurate holes. It's advisable to actually mount the bindings to check for perfect alignment, then de-mount and do the insert install.

Backcountry skiing binding inserts.

To check for fastener length, I simply placed a screw in the binding and threaded an insert on to make sure it seated nicely up against the binding. In photo above, if the insert is bottomed out the fastener is obviously too long, as arrow indicates.

Backcountry skiing binding inserts.

Turned out the best fastener for Dynafit heel unit was a pan head screw. The inserts are stainless steel and you Loctite the screws in, so I wasn't worried about fasteners rusting in. Thus, at the hardware store I opted for a regular zinc coated fastener rather than weaker stainless, but the stainless fasteners provided by Quiver Killer work as well, you just have to be more careful of bunging up the philips head. (I used stainless fasteners in the toe unit.)

Backcountry skiing binding inserts.

The heel unit fastener I chose, M5 .80 x 10 pan head

Backcountry skiing binding inserts.

After drilling with the provided drill bit and stop (visible to upper right in photo), the top skin of my skis had burred up a bit too much for solid binding seating, so I skived the burr off with the edge of a course sanding drum chucked into my cordless drill.

Backcountry skiing binding inserts.

Drilling the holes is easy, but thread tapping is definitely the crux of the process. Problem is you need to keep the tap aligned perpendicular to the top of the ski, and doing so by hand is tricky at best. Technique is to view the tap from several different angles as you insert, and correct the angle as you go. Quiver Killer suggests using a drill press (rotating it by hand) to do the tap. I've got a drill press, but opted for the handheld method to see just how difficult this would be for those of you out there who don't have drill presses. Conclusion: If you're careful and good with hand work, it is doable.

binding inserts

You install the inserts with a simple tool made from a longer fastener and stop nuts. This part of the process was easy, as the insert followed the tap threads with little effort (though I still had to watch alignment as it went in). Epoxy is involved, of course.

Backcountry skiing binding inserts.

My Dynafits (yes, these are a frankenbinding built from spare parts) went on fairly straight, but just as with a regular type Dynafit mount, it was necessary to 'true' the binding by placing a boot in the rig then pressing the heel to left and right until the toe unit shifted slightly and made the heel align perfectly. This was done before the epoxy hardens, as the inserts will shift slightly just as regular binding screws do.

I’m happy with how quick and relatively easy the Quiver Killer install process was. Once you’ve done it once, the work really shouldn’t take much longer than a regular binding mount. Downsides are few, but exist. Mainly, the inserts take up a lot of real estate, thus making it more difficult to place additional binding holes in your ski for other types of bindings, or for changing binding position for and aft. Another concern is that the machine screws don’t have as much side-to-side stability as an epoxied binding screw. Thus, it is important to tighten them enough (but not too much), and perhaps locate a few dabs of epoxy under the toe unit and corners of the heel unit to give a bit more sideways stability (that’s just theory, and perhaps unnecessary). The process is somewhat forgiving. For example, you can remove the inserts by heating to soften the epoxy then rotating out with an easy-out.

I’m looking forward to installing inserts in more of our quiver, thus saving time with our seemingly endless binding swaps.

(One tip: While doing this I discovered that one of the bushings on my Dynafit binding jig is off by a millimeter or so (in the rear, so it throws off the angle of the heel unit unless I’m careful. Disappointing. Next time I’ll probably use my paper template for the heel. If the paper template is used with care and a sharp center punch, it is easily as accurate as a mechanical jig.)

Comments

160 Responses to “Quiver Killer Binding Mount Inserts”

  1. Matt Kinney November 18th, 2010 10:13 am

    What do you use to heat/soften the epoxy if you need back out a stubborn screw?

  2. Greg Louie November 18th, 2010 10:24 am

    I take my #3 Pozidrive and stick it in the screw (with a lot of pressure) then heat the shaft of the screwdriver with a heat gun until the screw will move. Used to use a butane torch, but the heat gun is gentler . . .

  3. Greg Louie November 18th, 2010 10:26 am

    . . . some people use a soldering gun, too

  4. Lou November 18th, 2010 10:28 am

    Soldering iron works really well, count down the seconds, usually only takes 10 seconds or so for hardware store type epoxy… you don’t want to overheat. But if done correctly, the screw comes out like it’s in butter. Really nice and another reason why epoxy works so well. Note the the Quiver Killer specs Loctite to be used on the fasteners, the blue type which is easily reversible.

  5. Matt November 18th, 2010 10:34 am

    Lou, What are your thoughts on putting inserts into the Manaslu’s factory locations?

  6. Lou November 18th, 2010 10:38 am

    Matt, I don’t see how that would be a problem, but I’d make sure they get epoxied well, especially of one of them hits one of the strips of foam in the core.

  7. gringo November 18th, 2010 12:12 pm

    Looks like a good solution for keeping a quiver in budget.
    But I am curious why you say the machine screws would have less side to side stability? If everything is properly tightened, the epoxied wood screw / ski bond should fail way before a steel-loctite-steel interface, no?

  8. altis November 18th, 2010 1:55 pm

    Binding inserts tutorial from yesteryear here:
    http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195660&highlight=wildsnow

    Other binding inserts are available:
    http://www.bindingfreedom.com/Inserts_c3.htm

  9. tony November 18th, 2010 2:09 pm

    Lou you talk about what fastners you use for th heelpiece. What scerws do you use for the toe?

    Also, do you need different scerws for the Vertical ST and FT?

  10. Lou November 18th, 2010 2:21 pm

    Tony, Vertical ST and FT are identical bindings other than some small internal differences and some cosmetics. The fasteners are the same.

    The toe screws are flat head machine screws, same thread, 15 mm total length (13 mm thread). When using inserts, ALWAYS check fastener length by simply placing fastener in binding and screwing an insert on to the fastener and making sure it snugs up to the underside of the binding.

  11. Lou November 18th, 2010 3:29 pm

    Gringo, simple, epoxy a wood screw in a hole, let it stick out a centimeter or so, let the epoxy harden, and the screw is solid side to side. Put a machine screw in a threaded nut or insert, let it stick out a centimeter or so, wriggle from side to side, and you’ll feel plenty of play. That’s all I’m pointing out. Tension after tightening the machine screws substantially reduces the play, but it’s still there to some degree.

  12. nikki November 18th, 2010 4:28 pm

    Another provider of inserts…who actually designed the Quiver Killers:

    http://www.bindingfreedom.com

  13. Wayne November 18th, 2010 4:41 pm

    Lou:

    What is the difference between the Quiver Killer Inserts and a helicoil? As I recall the helicoil is open on the base and I guess on the sides of the threads of the helicoil, but other than that not much difference. Also, I believe that the helicoil is made out of aluminum and not stainless steel. It will be interesting to see if the inserts hold up well after multiple binding mounting intervals. I have experienced issues with helicoil inserts pulling out of the ski and I am assuming that the large hole that the helicoil requires weakens the ski somewhat.

    Thanks,

  14. Lou November 18th, 2010 4:56 pm

    Helicoil is an entirely different animal, designed to work with regular binding screws, and not that strong. The inserts are bomber. Large holes could weaken a ski, but it’s been a while since I heard of a ski breaking underfoot due to binding mount holes. Most manufacturers make the ski very strong in that area. For example, the Drifts I mounted the inserts in have what appears to be a thick HDP plastic binding reinforcement plate build into the ski. Impressive.

  15. John W November 18th, 2010 5:21 pm

    Kind of related question:
    I was given some skis last year that have had 2 sets of binders. The Freerides I want to put on will add to the Swiss cheese effect. Do you have a suggestion for hole filler that works better / stronger than p-tex plugs?

  16. Lou November 18th, 2010 5:35 pm

    John, if the holes don’t overlap just fill them with epoxy. If they overlap, then it’s time for some careful work, usually by a professional.

    But check this out:

    http://www.wildsnow.com/398/how-many-holes-can-you-drill-in-a-ski/

  17. Colin November 18th, 2010 6:03 pm
  18. Doug Heirich November 18th, 2010 7:14 pm

    Great write up on the inserts. As for the tapping perpendicularity problem: A tap guide block can help a lot here: making an accurate tapped hole in a plate ( I’ve used Aluminum if I don’t need long life). If the the reference plate is made on a drill press, you will have a guide that you can carry it to any preferred ski work location. That means you only need to use/borrow a drill press for one hole, and you do not need to worry about balancing/ chucking up skis on a drill press.

  19. TheSkiBug November 19th, 2010 6:04 am

    Given my DIY skills think I will leave this to the experts!

  20. Lou November 19th, 2010 6:44 am

    This sort of thing isn’t for everyone, but I always find it delightful how many people do have significant DIY skills and tools. Back when I first started web publishing DIY Dynafit mounting instructions and template, I got flack from industry and shops, but I had faith. Skiing related DIY subsequently exploded.

    One thing that drives this is not all ski shops are created equal. If you have access to a good shop with a known to be good crew of mechanics, it is frequently worth using their services. But how do you find such a shop? I’ve been burned so many times myself, and hear so many stories of shop created messes, it’s obvious that DIY despite the chance of screwing something up might nearly always be the way to go! At the least, if you mess something up, you’re not stuck negotiating with a shop who balks at making it right, which is also a frequent story I hear.

  21. Lou November 19th, 2010 6:56 am

    Found a bunch of tap guides and guide blocks (thanks Google):

    http://tool.wttool.com/tools/Tap%20Guide

    Interesting

  22. NICK November 19th, 2010 12:32 pm

    After working in a ski shop years ago, I am extremely hesitant to hand my skis over to a ski shop. We were just a bunch of college kids figuring it out as we went and covering up our screw ups whenever possible. As you said Lou, unless you know and trust them, you don’t know what you’ll get.

    Back on topic, I wonder how well these inserts will hold a telemark binding, which puts way more force on the ski (especially if it’s the 4 hole pattern instead of 6). I’ve read a few reviews of satisfied telemarkers using these inserts, but am still unsure. Lou, what’s your opinion on this?

  23. Lou November 19th, 2010 1:03 pm

    Nick, the inserts have the potential to be super strong as they have way more surface area than a fastener of same length. But they are short. I really can’t guess if they’d be strong enough for tele or not. The guys at Quiver Killer are super helpful, so perhaps ask them.

    Could be another example of something that works good for alpine but is difficult to port to telemark.

  24. Nick November 19th, 2010 3:41 pm

    Hello everyone. I’m the owner of Puder Luder, LLC, the manufacturer and distributor of the Quiver Killer binding inserts. I don’t want to interrupt the conversation here but wanted to make myself available for any specific questions you may have regarding our product. I’ll make one note regarding telemark mounts: we have lots of happy telemark customers who usually pull binding screws that never again have a problem once they switch to Quiver Killers. The Quiver Killer attachment to your ski is hands down more robust than a traditional binding screw, we bet our reputation on it.

    Best,

    Nick Bosco
    managing member
    Puder Luder, LLC
    nick@quiverkiller.com
    http://www.quiverkiller.com

  25. Lou November 19th, 2010 3:49 pm

    Thanks Nick, good of you to make yourself available!

  26. Steve November 21st, 2010 12:06 am

    Lou – you and I are on the same wavelength this week – Quiver Killer inserts, Sierra Trading Post AT gear…

    I just used these to mount Dynafit toe pieces on my splitboard. Since this is my first rig that will use hard boots for snowboarding, I wanted to make sure that I could switch back to the original style of uphill toe pieces.

    Did everything by hand, and it turned out okay… My inserts weren’t perfectly vertical, so I had to open up the plastic baseplates of the toe pieces a bit to allow all the screws to line up correctly.

    If I had to do it again, I would probably have used it as an excuse to buy a small drill press. It is possible by hand, but I definitely wouldn’t say it is easy…

    gnubbs

  27. Tim November 21st, 2010 12:54 am

    Are these inserts cut from a single piece of metal, and sealed at the bottom?

    What I am asking is if I put two sets of inserts into one ski, say for two binding systems, will there be any worry of moisture getting into the core from the unused inserts?

  28. Nick November 21st, 2010 8:30 am

    Tim,

    Yes, Quiver Killers are machined from a single piece of Stainless Steel. It was our intention to create an insert that would be water tight to your ski’s core even when there is no binding attached.

    If you go to our website and let the images cycle through, there are some good close-ups that show all angles of the Quiver Killers.

    Nick
    managing member
    Puder Luder, LLC
    http://www.quiverkiller.com

  29. Lou November 21st, 2010 10:49 am

    Steve, the tap guide I linked to above is the way to go. I’ll be getting one after Thanksgiving and will blog about it. Tempted to go for the higher end one, but the $20 option looks pretty cool. While drilling, I found that just eyballing the drill alignment from various angles was enough to get the holes adequately straight. Tapping is tougher to do well.

  30. Jonathan Shefftz November 21st, 2010 11:34 am

    I’ve never had a problem with keeping a tap straight, although it does require some careful work, and I can see how with the inserts being super careful is even more important.
    I ordered the two less-expensive tap guides since they seem relatively quick & easy to use. The other option is to use a tap stopper thingie so that you can tap straight through the jig. Even though I have this, I’ve never bothered using it, since I like to shake out the holes first, which would require realigning the jig. Plus the thingie needs to have the position set just right. (Yeah, I know all of that is kind of hard to describe, but you get the idea . . . maybe?)

  31. Marc November 21st, 2010 1:02 pm

    The inserts look great! I’ve been wanting something like this for some time. I’ll be putting them on most of my skis this year. Dynafits concern should be not selling as many bindings as they have in the past!!! The biggest problem I see at this point is for these guys to meet the demand. Binding Freedom is completely out until mid January…

    I’d echo concerns about having just any shop do your mounting. Many backcountry oriented shops are not true ski shops; just outdoor shops selling backcountry gear. After seeing several botched mounts done by local “backcountry shops” (toe pieces pulling out, heel pieces not aligning with the boot) I wanted to try and mount my own Dynafits. With the help of your tutorial Lou, I have now mounted over 10 pairs of Dynafits and several pairs of Dukes. I’m confident in my mounts saving $50 each time! Thanks Lou for all the information and gear reviews!

  32. Lou November 21st, 2010 1:23 pm

    Marc, that sounds terrific! Glad you found our stuff useful, we do put in our time on it!

    Yes, Binding Freedom is out of inserts according to their website, but as far as I know Quiver Killer has them, and those are the ones we reviewed here. Clear?

  33. KDog November 21st, 2010 1:55 pm

    I was just dreading ordering 3 new sets of bindings for our new skis and thinking about if I could hold out until after the holidays hoping for a sale price. But Wildsnow came thru again!

    Thanks for the posting Lou. I ordered the 54 piece set from Quiver Killer and the Tap Guide.

    I’ve got five pairs of skis to put inserts in and should be pretty good at it by the 5th attempt :D

    A question Lou,

    Do you know of anyone making a Dynafit Jig from your paper template and what might be a good alignment mechanism?

  34. Lou November 21st, 2010 2:19 pm

    KDog, practice on dumpster skis. Work from a super accurate tip/tail oriented center line. Use a boot to true. To figure out which boots to use, grab existing mounted binding and try boots from same pair of boots, if they both go in straight, either one of those boots is your truing boot. Also, be super careful to check paper template with actual binding before drilling. Use a sharp center punch and a sharp drill bit. You might even actually mount the bindings (dry) before doing the inserts, get them true and working perfectly, then de-mount and do the inserts. You’re working with expensive skis so might as well take the time to do it right.

  35. Jon Liam November 21st, 2010 7:17 pm

    Great stuff Lou.

    A question here: How viable is it to use inserts for 2 sets of binders on the same ski? I am especially interested in Dynafit ST and Silvretta 500.

    One can always move a set of binder to avoid partial overlap so I guess theoretically it can be done?

    Cheers.

  36. Lou November 21st, 2010 7:35 pm

    jon, it’s not a problem if the holes are far enough apart, or sometimes you can share some holes and locate the others in a way that’s not to close.

  37. Marc November 21st, 2010 9:49 pm

    Hey Lou, one more question: it’s not totally clear to me… do the inserts come with the M5 screws, or do you have to source them yourself? I thought I read that your inserts came with them, but you used zinc plated instead for strength…
    I’d be careful “mixing” metals, especially in the wet environment of ski bindings. In climbing we are seeing the drastic aging of America’s bolted climbs. The big culprit: galvanic corrosion. Basically it’s when two different types of metals are in contact with one another and exposed to the elements. In climbing, the oxidization process is sped up when bolts and hangers are of dissimilar metals (SS & plated steel). I could see this happening with your inserts too. Not that they are going to “fail” in a season, but the corrosion could make removal difficult… I’m sure someone who knows much more about this than I do could chime in!
    Cheers, Marc

  38. Jed Ullrich November 22nd, 2010 3:34 pm

    I was on these inserts all last season and had no problems. At home install no drill press. I’ve done some tapping by hand before and worked at a ski shop

  39. afox November 22nd, 2010 4:15 pm

    Lou,
    You wrote “The inserts arrive with a selection of fasteners for your type of bindings.” I ordered quiver killers but they did not come with any screws and I dont see the screws as an option on the quiver killer website. Perhaps you got special treatment as a reviewer?

    Special lengths of short M5 screws are not always available at the hardware store and have to be ordered from someplace like McMaster Carr which only sells them in boxes of 100 at around $12/box plus $10 for shipping. If you need a couple of different types of screws for 2 pairs of bindings that’s easily $60 in screws and a bit of a headache to find and order the right ones…definitely something to consider…

  40. Lou November 22nd, 2010 4:25 pm

    Afox, perhaps I did get the VIP treatment! If so, apologies for implying everyone gets fasteners along with their inserts. Contact Quiver Killer and see what they say. Let us know.

    Indeed, if screws are that hard to get that’s a HUGE factor that should be mentioned here so folks don’t get ambushed. So thanks so much for bringing it up.

  41. Kelly November 22nd, 2010 4:32 pm

    You can get various screw sets at Binding Freedom. Jon, (the owner) originally designed the inserts that are selling over at Quiverkiller. I think he’s also selling inserts now, with some mods from the original design – as soon as they can be fabricated.

    http://www.bindingfreedom.com/Screws_c5.htm

  42. Jon Moceri November 22nd, 2010 4:37 pm

    Mark, I have the Quiver Killer inserts and they do not come with M5 screws. The inside threads are metric and SAE screws will not work.

    Any good hardware store should have a selection of different length M5 screws to choose from.

    As far as galvanic corrosion between stainless steel and zinc is concerned, it could be a problem.

    http://www.ssina.com/corrosion/galvanic.html

    I’m a sailor and installed the quiver killer inserts on my trimaran so I could install removable navigation lights. In the sailing forums, there is a lot of discussion about corrosion, particularly stainless steel and aluminum. Also, carbon fiber and aluminum is a very bad combination as the carbon fiber actually conducts electricity and will eat up aluminum in a saltwater environment. Most people use products like Tef-Gel, Duralac or Lanscote.

    Tef-Gel is a teflon based sticky paste and just acts to displace water from the joint so that the electrolysis can’t get started. Lanscote is similar but is made from lanolin. Duralac forms a protective layer that keeps the metals apart.

    But these products aren’t made for applications that need to be kept tight. Although the Duralac does dry and may make a decent adhesive.

    However, I think in a cold freshwater environment, that just a dab of blue loctite would suffice.

    But if anyone has carbon fiber in their skis, never put aluminum next to the carbon fiber. An insulating barrier must always be used.

  43. Marc November 22nd, 2010 4:51 pm

    Jon M.- That’s an interesting note about the carbon fiber enhancing the process due to electricity. My skis DO have carbon in them (DPS)! My next question is what are these inserts made out of SS or aluminum? Thanks for the tip!

  44. Lou November 22nd, 2010 5:02 pm

    The QK inserts are stainless steel, and you should always use blue Loctite when installing fasteners in the inserts. I used zinc coated steel fasteners for the rear, sealed with blue Loctite, and have zero concern about corrosion for whatever reason. I use a mix of stainless and zinc fasteners all over my custom Jeep, and have never noticed any unusual corrosion.

    I had no problem finding fasteners at our local hardware store, as for Dynafit I needed more and different than my VIP status got me from QK in the mail (grin).

  45. Terry Ackerman November 23rd, 2010 7:53 am

    Nice review and primer, Lou.

    Regarding different inserts, here’s an image of ski and snowboard heli-coils, brass and nylon tap ins next to the QuiverKillers (formerly Puder Luder): http://www.slidewright.com/Bindings/inserts_pl_inserts-640.jpg

    The holes required for helicoils and brass tap ins or threaded inserts is 5/16″, while the nylon tap ins and QuiverKiller need a 1/4″ or F bit and 5/16 8-18 tap for the inserts.

    Stainless steel screws seem like the call with the inserts and seems like the concerns relative to metal compatibility is where the screw or inserts contact metal binding components.

  46. Terry Ackerman November 23rd, 2010 8:24 am

    (BTW, how’s the T-track system holding up? ;-) )

  47. jb November 24th, 2010 12:26 pm

    I mounted some of these up on a pair of tele skis that were pre-drilled… I found out later they were mounted on a 3 pin line that was incorrectly printed on the top sheet. I was wondering if anyone has attempted to remove inserts and if so how did it go for ya. In the write up you mention heating them up, but what’s an easy out? Thanks in Advance

  48. altis November 24th, 2010 12:32 pm
  49. David November 25th, 2010 4:17 pm

    Lou,
    I don’t see anything about weight. I am trying to decide between a plates and inserts. The advantage of a plate presumably is more mounting flexibility, and ease of mounting. The inserts on the other hand are cheaper and presumably lighter. Any thoughts?

  50. Jb November 25th, 2010 4:41 pm

    Weight each us about .04 ounces.. Very light even if you wanted 2 mounting options!

  51. Lou November 26th, 2010 10:24 am

    “Easy out” is also known as a screw extractor. It’s simply a metal thing that looks like a tapered screw, only the thread are reversed. Available at nearly any auto parts store or hardware store. Worked fine on the insert I had to remove, though it screws up the threads on the inside of the insert, so you’d thus need to trash the insert you removed unless you lucked out and the extractor didn’t trash the threads. Heat to soften epoxy by either using soldering iron on insert, or get the extractor inserted, then heat the extractor with heat gun. Be careful not to overheat and damage ski core. Regular hardware store epoxy softens quickly (which is why I use it for ski mounts instead of more radical stuff).

  52. Keith November 26th, 2010 2:48 pm

    Lou
    Have you tried the plate system yet? Interested in this because I want to use dynafits and dukes on the same ski.

  53. Lou November 26th, 2010 3:56 pm

    Ate too much turkey, project got delayed for a few days (grin), but all parts are at HQ and shall be vetted next week.

  54. Nick November 28th, 2010 2:53 pm

    We are now offering fastener kits for sale from our site.

    http://www.quiverkiller.com

  55. Lou November 28th, 2010 5:53 pm

    Thanks for letting us know Nick.

  56. Dave November 29th, 2010 11:04 am

    This past Saturday I installed inserts (from Q.K.) for my Dynaduke binding plates (from Binding Freedom). I decided to use both because buying three plate sets was way too expensive… Thus I opted to install inserts to move the plates from ski to ski. Yea, removing and reinstalling 34 screws may seem like a lot of work but when you are saving the cheddah stacks it is worth it. Also, I have my favorite pair in the quiver and predominately use them on a daily basis.

    Installing the inserts was easier then expected. The hardest part is measuring, measuring, and re-measuring to ensure accuracy. The mounting template for the plates seemed to be off boot center by 5mm in the aft direction. It was not a big deal for one set because I had to move the template 12mm forward due to a previous mount job. Speaking of the mount job, never have your skis mounted at Mammoth… They did an awful job and I am pretty sure the tech had know idea what he was doing.

    As for drilling and tapping I used a drill press to ensure the inserts were plum. Using the press made the install a breeze. Here are some tips that I found useful:

    1. Because I did have a bottoming tap I made one by cutting a two fluted plug tap. The two fluted tap did its job but after two inserts I opted for a four fluted plug tap. The four fluted tap aligns and cuts better.
    2. Following the tap I used a 5/16-18 hardened bolt to chase the threads. This made the threads nice and crisp…
    3. Don’t use the stop on your drill press. Rather use a collar to ensure the proper depth. If you use the stop on your press there is the possibility of drilling a shallow hole due to the taper of the core.

  57. altis November 29th, 2010 2:49 pm

    No one, before Dave, mentioned the different types of tap available. If you are willing to spend a little more you can buy them as a set of three – first, middle and bottom. A first tap has very little thread on it so it is easy to get started in the hole and, consequently, easier to keep vertical. However, with so little depth available it may not cut very much before bottoming out. Then move on to the middle tap and finally the bottom tap.

    Another trick I’ve used to start things off vertical is to hold the tap in a cordless drill. It’s easier to eyeball this than a tap handle that’s spinning round. Obviously, you need to be careful, use a very slow speed set a low clutch value to stop the tap breaking.

  58. Lou November 29th, 2010 2:52 pm

    Nice tips Altis, thanks!

  59. Jonathan Shefftz November 29th, 2010 2:56 pm

    I just received my “Self-Aligning Hand Tapper & Reamer” and “Plastic Tap Guide Block” — both are much larger, heavier, and generally more substantial (i.e., all good things in this context) than I had expected from the pictures. The former item should adjust well to any sized tap (it’s essentially a massive handle that fits into the cone-shaped guide), and the latter product once I reamed out one of the holes a bit works well with the diameter of the commonly used tap & handle integrated combo. With both I drilled and tapped some random holes in a block of wood, and they came out very well.

  60. Lou November 29th, 2010 2:58 pm

    Cool Jonathan! I also just ordered a tap guide block, I’m trying this one:

    http://www.amazon.com/Flexbar-Precision-Tap-Guide/dp/B001C1B9GU/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1291064260&sr=8-5

    If you can, file a blog post on how your setup works.

  61. Terry Ackerman November 29th, 2010 3:15 pm

    A tap guide on a non-flat or contoured ski may be counterproductive vs a platform or independent y supported ‘benchmark’.

    Before consuming massive amounts of turkey and fixings, I drilled tapped, epoxied and inserted Quiver Killers in two pairs of skis. By using the drill press for vertical holes, I at least knew the holes were reliable and the tapping was really pretty easy to keep vertical.

    Like Nick, we offer a a couple kit options and screws. I stocked up on hex SS screws and some 5mm shoulder screws. By using a 3mm hex bit in a ratchet drive (or tap handle or drill) it was quick to use the shoulder screw and a nut for installing the inserts. A couple twists to engage the insert and then screw the insert into the epoxied hole (Machinable epoxy) went smooth and fast.

  62. Jonathan Shefftz November 29th, 2010 3:20 pm

    A bit of thread drift here, but just wanted to point out that Terry’s shop is the *only* publicly available source of ski binding screws.

  63. Terry Ackerman November 29th, 2010 3:23 pm

    Thanks Jonathan….we have also are fully stocked with snowboard/splitboard screws and taps (and binding parts) as well as the 5mm SS Quiver Killer compatible screws.

  64. Terry Ackerman November 29th, 2010 3:28 pm

    I forgot to ask what length screws people are using?

    Also, here is an image of the socket head screws we currently have: http://www.slidewright.com/prodimages/SlideWright/5MMSCREWS.jpg

    What are opinions on pros and cons of socket heads versus phillips screws?

  65. Lou November 29th, 2010 4:44 pm

    Terry, I was thinking I could shim the tap guide with a layer or two of duct tape to compensate if necessary for curve of ski top…

  66. Terry Ackerman December 5th, 2010 9:52 am
  67. Don Jaun December 13th, 2010 8:18 pm

    Editor’s note: Post redacted, despite the loads of fun web traffic it would give us we could brag on, too much unsubstantiated slander for my taste. This is not a business to business website nor a place to communicate about inter-business squabbles.

  68. Mark December 13th, 2010 8:45 pm

    the binding freedom product line does seem very impressive. i’d love to hear from someone who uses the plates.

  69. Lou December 13th, 2010 8:46 pm

    Mark, we just got done installing Binding Freedom plates on Louie’s Megawatts, they are really quite impressive, review coming soon but man, I’m all the sudden busy!

  70. Terry Ackerman December 13th, 2010 9:28 pm

    Mark, et al. Here is Binding Freedom designer’s YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/dynaduke#p/a/u/1/GQ-Cp1Wrb_c

    The steps for layout, drilling and for mounting are generically useful for whatever binding you are mounting. The 3rd video is the DynaDuke plates and binding.

  71. Lou December 13th, 2010 10:14 pm

    Good stuff from Binding Freedom, but I think there is a better way to find ski center, especially on skis with curved top edges. I describe the “folded paper” method in our Dynafit mounting instructions, see:
    http://www.wildsnow.com/articles/dynafit_mount_2001/dynafit_mount_2001_1.html

  72. Terry Ackerman December 13th, 2010 10:24 pm

    Yeah, I stole your approach and drew this Ski Center Template: http://www.slidewright.com/Bindings/skicenter.jpg

  73. Lou December 13th, 2010 10:29 pm

    Jeez Terry, way to complicate a scrap of paper :lol:

  74. Terry Ackerman December 13th, 2010 10:34 pm

    It’s what I do best. :-0

  75. KDog December 13th, 2010 11:13 pm

    Hey Lou (or Louie) ,

    Do you know if the Marker Tour F10/F12′s will mount to that DynaDuke plate? Binding Freedoms site does not answer this question.

    Thanx

  76. KDog December 13th, 2010 11:27 pm

    Sorry,

    Just found the answer on another post :oops:

    “Lou,
    Since you have the Tour in-hand, can you tell if the drill holes for the Tour are the same as the Duke/Baron? ”

    “Yes, yes yes and yes…”

    Ok! Got it…

  77. Jon Liam December 14th, 2010 4:50 am

    Hey Lou,

    Would you consider making a list of bindings and the compatible M5 screw type and length they use?

    I don’t mean now, maybe a project for your down time (do you even have any??)

    Cheers,
    Jon

  78. Lou December 14th, 2010 6:21 am

    Jon, that’s probably something I wouldn’t have time for, and is best addressed by the companies selling inserts.

  79. Terry Ackerman December 14th, 2010 8:09 am

    Enumerating all binding and screw lengths would be a tedious, major PITA. And depending on insert you use and how deep you install them, there are additional variables and considerations. Best thing to do is measure the lengths of your existing binding screws, add for insert type and potential mounting depth variables and obtain more screw sizes and depths you need.

    The screws are cheap and a common thread 5mm x .8mm pitch and having more than you need is better than not having them.

    You can easily grind or file longer screws to a shorter length.

    If you need a smaller head diameter, one trick is to put a screw anchor in a drill press, insert the screw, turn on and CAREFULLY hold a file, stone or diamond file against the head to evenly reduce diameter.

    Many binding mounts are discussed in these threads at TGR:

    http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3097559
    http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198148

    A couple comments from Jon of Binding Freedom:

    “^^ I would actually recommend that people drill and mount bindings as normal first. Ski them once to make absolutely sure that the holes are in the right spot before installing the inserts. Then take off the bindings and drill out the holes further. The original holes will act as a nice guide to put the inserts in exactly the right spot.

    Once you install the inserts, there’s no undoing them…”

    “I know this stuff is confusing, so bear with me.
    -DynaDuke and SollyFit plates are 7mm thick, and are designed for 6mm MAX thread engagement.
    -BindingFreedom inserts are designed for 6mm MAX thread engagement
    -PL’s inserts are designed for 4-5mm MAX thread engagement”

  80. Nick December 14th, 2010 8:24 am

    We’ve been compiling such a table and it is available in the download section of our site under “fastener reference table”

    http://quiverkiller.com/?pageID=625940

    It’s by no means comprehensive, but is a good start. We always encourage our customers to report back to us with what they have found to work best so the list is always growing.

    Nick

  81. Terry Ackerman December 14th, 2010 8:25 am

    ….and FTR:

    Inserts and heli-coills are not new and used in many other applications besides skis and snowboards. Brass threaded and brass or nylon and tap-in inserts hold well for snowboard or alpine screws, but do not have closed bottoms.

    Some backstory for everyone: The way I understand it, Jon (Binding Freedom) was somehow involved in the initial design concept of PuderLuder/Quiver Killer (Nick) inserts as well as his Binding Freedom inserts. Between these two, Nick made the first move to bring binding inserts to market and has made many aware of this through effective marketing. Both companies sell inserts, while of course claiming the superiority of their products for various reasons. The competition between these two guys will help the consumer by offering choice and drive improvements…….and PO the binding companies. :lol:

  82. Ed December 14th, 2010 4:22 pm

    Lou,

    What size easy out did you use to remove the inserts? Our local NAPA store had 5 types, either just too big or just too small. The closest was a 15/64, but was a bit too large.

    Thanks,

    Ed

  83. harpo December 19th, 2010 7:57 am

    A couple of comments:

    Nick just posted this on TGR:

    ‘PSA: Loc-tite and binding inserts

    It has been brought to our attention that the plastic of some binders may be harmed when contacted with liquid Loctite. Specific reports, so far, are exclusively for 22 Designs binder’s where cracking of the plastic which was contacted with the Loctite has occurred. 22 Designs has always forbid the use of Loctite, however.

    Our specific experience is primarily with Fritschi and Marker products, where exposure to liquid Loctite has remained benign up to this point (over a year).

    Loctite does produce a thread locking tape: Loctite Quicktape 249, which we would recommend in cases where you want to insure the thread locking substance does not contact your binder.

    Vibra-tite VC-3 is a non-anaerobic thread locking material that is also safe for plastics. After some initial testing, we may switch to supplying this in our tool kits.

    Best,

    Puder Luder ”

    Anyone one know is this loctite/plastic degradation applies to Dynafit plastic? I had this problem once before with plastic buckles on road biking shoes, but that was the only time after many uses before and since.

  84. harpo December 19th, 2010 8:01 am

    More comments:

    According to J at Binding Freedom, and I have verified this by looking at both Vertical ST10 and Vertical FT12 binders, the ST heels takes pan head screws idetical to those on the Comfort, while the FT heel takes flat head screws. The scerws for the toe unit of the ST is identical to that of the FT, different (I think all flat head but they are longer) than the Comfort toe unit scerws.

  85. Lou December 19th, 2010 8:02 am

    Ed, weird, I just have a pile of them I’ve bought over the years from NAPA, and a couple in there fit just fine…

  86. Lou December 19th, 2010 8:17 am

    Harpo, that sounds like typical TGR overblown chatter. Sounds like the “some” bindings is one brand, 22 Designs, that already said not to use Loctite with their plastic. This is news?

    I’ll check interaction of Loctite with Dynafit and other bindings, but most of such plastic is acetal (Delrin) and from what I can glean on the web Loctite is actually used to lock threads in Delrin. Also, as Nick said, in his own experience, no problems with Fritschi or Marker…

    Next “issue”?

  87. Jonathan Shefftz December 19th, 2010 12:10 pm

    “The screws for the toe unit of the ST is identical to that of the FT, different (I think all flat head but they are longer) than the Comfort toe unit screws.”
    – But the final (i.e., third) generation of the Comfort just used the Vertical ST baseplate. And I’m pretty sure the Comfort screw lengths stayed the same over time (although I don’t have any older Comforts to verify).

  88. harpo December 19th, 2010 12:14 pm

    your right jonathan, I think the ST/FT/and Comfort use the same screws for the toe plate. The only length difference was that the scerws for use with the PL inserts are one length shorter than for use with Jondrum’s Binding Freedom products, plates or inserts. Sorry for the confusion

  89. Lou December 19th, 2010 12:57 pm

    I’ve got all that stuff here, and yeah, never seen any difference between Comfort/ST/FT FRONT screws.

  90. Peter Rothermel December 21st, 2010 1:09 am

    Regarding the side to side movement of a machine bolt in an insert, versus to an epoxy seated binding screw. Wouldn’t the loc-tight used with the machine bolt make side to side movement non-existent?

    Peter

  91. Lou December 21st, 2010 7:37 am

    Peter, Loctite most certainly helps but doesn’t fill all the voids like epoxy would. That is unless you use a ton of the stuff and make big mess, and even then it doesn’t seem as strong under compression as epoxy.

    This is kind of a non-issue, as once the machine screw is torqued and thus tensioned, yes, with Loctite, the tendency to wriggle sideways is probably all but eliminated. Meaning they need to be torqued correctly, meaning perhaps we should be using a small accurate torque wrench to do this.

  92. stephen January 5th, 2011 7:21 am

    Has anyone tried using these to replace Dynafit’s plastic inserts yet? If so, what happened? Thanks!

  93. Kristinn January 17th, 2011 9:25 am

    Hi there
    Just wanted to know if anyone is experiencing turning out of the holes the inserts when swopping bindings or are the threads on the inserts counterclockwise???

  94. Lou January 17th, 2011 9:33 am

    Kristinn, that doesn’t seem to be a problem.

  95. Kristinn January 17th, 2011 9:47 am

    Just so I get this right you put epoxy between skis and inserts and thread glue between insert and bolt???

  96. Lou January 17th, 2011 10:06 am

    Si.

  97. Terry Ackerman January 17th, 2011 10:12 am

    There is the potential for the insert epoxy to soften or melt and may back out IF you add heat to the screw or insert to loosen the screw. Use a thread locking material, not epoxies between the screw and insert.

  98. Lou January 17th, 2011 10:21 am

    What Terry said, and blue Loctite is the stuff.

  99. Nick January 17th, 2011 11:27 am

    Kristinn,

    I received your email but you did not leave a proper email address for me to respond to. All the advice you’ve received here is sound. I would only suggest the use of Vibra-TITE VC-3 over loctite, since loctite seems to like to eat the plastic of some binders.

    Nick

  100. stephen January 19th, 2011 12:09 am

    It appears that Vibratite VC3 is not sold outside the USA….

    So NIck, which bindings is Loctite known to eat (is it only 22 Designs?) and which are okay?

  101. Terry Ackerman January 19th, 2011 8:30 am

    stephen,
    Check out this discussion at Telemark Tips: http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=72582&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

    Jon of Binding Freedom is currently suggesting/testing Loctite 425 as a plastic friendly alternative versus blue label Loctite 242.

    Also, check out this TGR thread on thread locking: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3126849#post3126849 I tried using metal grip and a soldering iron as an experiment at it appears to be working BUT, YOU MUST BE CAREFUL to not over heat so the insert epoxy softens. This ‘option’ needs more testing, but is very encouraging if other thread lockers are not available.

  102. Nick January 19th, 2011 9:05 am

    Stephen,

    We’ve had several reports of loctite causing cracking of the 22D binders so definitely those. Maybe the BD heel pieces too, but that is all of which we have knowledge . We have used loctite on Fritschi’s for a while with no issues, and Marker and Sollys for a shorter period but again with no issues. Never the less we decided to totally switch over to the Vibra-TITE product to err on the side of caution. Besides, we do like the functionality of Vibra-TITE over loctite as well.

    We do sell it in one-use packs from the site which is a little more than enough for one set of binder screws. We’ve been sending a pack out to any former customers that have been asking for it at no cost, and we do ship internationally.

    Best

    Nick

  103. Mats January 20th, 2011 1:35 pm

    I have mounted Quiver Killer inserts on a pair of K2 Sidestash and it works fine so far. I use the FT12 binding and no thread locking is needed for the toe unit as the plastic plate under the binding is doing the same job as the nylon in a nut with nylon thread lock. After 3 days of intense resort skiing there is no sign of any problem with the mount.

    I am using PTFE thread seal tape for the heel unit fittings, no need for some messy fluid and no waiting for any glue to dry. Works fine in the field and cold weather outdoor mounting too.

    ******

    The next step is to put inserts in my Manaslu skis. I have noticed a few questions regarding compability with the existing plastic inserts but no definite answers.

    Nick, any experience on this?

    Lou, what is the outer diameter of the plastic inserts in the Manaslu? The visible black part is approx 11 mm in diameter but is that the true diameter if you pull it out? The Quiver Killers should be OK then as they are less than 8 mm wide.

    Thanks for any input.

  104. Mats January 20th, 2011 1:58 pm

    I found this interesting piece of information, very good blog site.
    http://www.wildsnow.com/1457/dynafit-manaslu-binding-holes-mounting/

    It pretty much answers my question to Lou, thanks for that. I will go ahead and put Quiver Killer inserts in the Manaslu´s.

  105. stephen January 20th, 2011 7:57 pm

    Terry and Nick – thanks for that!

    Mats, I’m not so sure all will be well. It looks like the holes are not necessarily in the centre of the inserts (from the cutaway pic), so the QK’s could end up part in the plastuic insert and part in the core. Plus there’s also the possibility of the plastic insert spinning in the ski if the QK insert is fitted into it.

    I was thinking of trying to fit some QK inserts into the Manaslu holes I’m not using and seeing how it feels, but there’s no way for me to attach a boot if I do this, so cannot really test effectively.

  106. Mats January 21st, 2011 9:12 am

    Stephen,

    I have already put the inserts in the Manaslu´s. It worked very well. The threads I made in the plastic inserts looks like factory made, much better compared to making threads in soft wood as otherwise is the case.

    I had no problem with spinning plastic inserts. I am not sure about Lou´s advice to use epoxi with ordinary screws and the plastic inserts. It makes no difference in the case of moisture in the ski as the plastic is waterproof.

    When warming the epoxi glued screw to take it out you also warm the plastic insert and maybe that´s the reason for at least some spinning plastic inserts when re-using the holes. The plastic inserts itself may very well be epoxi glued into the ski.

  107. Terry Ackerman January 21st, 2011 9:31 am

    Mats,
    The PFTE tape has been sometimes a PITA with smaller threaded pipe and it just seems like more so with screws and cold. Obviously, I need to try this to see, but any tips or are there PFTE tapes that are ‘stickier’ than others to help with wrapping threads?

    FTR, SVST’s catalog says, “Vibra-TiteTM Thread Lock
    Positively the best thread lock available. Vibra-Tite™ can be loosened and reinstalled without losing its holding power. We are so confident that this is the best thread lock on the market that we offer you a full money back guarantee if you do not agree.”

  108. Mats January 21st, 2011 11:58 am

    Terry, I have not tried the “reinstall feature” of Vibra-Tite. If you just have to put it once it is for sure better compared to the tape. Feedback on this would be useful. Does it work and if so how many times without filling up with more Vibra-Tite?

    With the PTFE tape you just warm the screw by hand and then roll the tape on the screw while stretching the tape so that the threads get visible. Be sure to roll the tape on in the right direction.

    For plumping purposes I find the PTFE tape pretty useless.

  109. stephen January 22nd, 2011 7:00 am

    Mats,

    Good to know it worked for you! I might give it a try tomorrow with my unused inserts. Only problem is that the boot won’t fit in, and there’s no snow in Oz anyway – but I should be able to tell if it feels okay.

    I really want to be able to fit and remove the bindings easily for travelling as less volume plus less bindings to carry.

    Will probably just use Loctite as I’ll only be using Dynafit and Voile bindings, both of which are apparently okay with it.

  110. Lou January 22nd, 2011 7:59 am

    PTFE tape for thread locking? Is that where you guys are going with this? As far as know PTFE tape is simply a thread sealer not a locker. In fact, it probably has the opposite effect from locking. As for Loctite, I’d still like to see definitive proof of binding plastic it damaged. I’ll keep using it until I do.

  111. Terry Ackerman January 22nd, 2011 9:23 am

    Good point Lou. Loctite does also make threadlocker tapes.

  112. whitehonky January 24th, 2011 1:24 pm

    The plastic used by Rossignol on their performance binding line… both Axial and Axium designs IS AFFECTED by LocTite. The LocTite damages, erodes, and shatters the plastic base plate on these bindings. Basically any non-delrin (usually black and shiny) plastic can/could be affected. Use care. Or just use Vibra-Tite. I’ve also had good luck with toothpaste, believe it or not.

  113. doug April 11th, 2011 5:28 pm

    Curious if anyone has used both Quiver Killer AND Binding Freedom inserts? Any differences between them? There are different prices listed — just curious if one brand of insert is vastly different than the other? They both appear identical comparing on-line picture to on-line picture. But, hard to trust anything you read on-line these days! Thanks.

  114. Lou April 11th, 2011 7:32 pm

    There has been a war between the insert makers, each with fanboys in their corner cheering them on, but really, both types of inserts are pretty similar. I’d use either. If any fanboys care to chime in, feel free (grin).

  115. D. Diggler April 21st, 2011 3:16 pm

    For all the weight obsessed out there, I just upgraded my quiver killer insert system to m5 titanium fasteners (from a specialty bike shop) and lost a whopping 25g. Cheers.

  116. Lou April 21st, 2011 3:55 pm

    Cool!

  117. tony April 21st, 2011 4:00 pm

    d, how much did the ti fastners cost?

  118. Bill April 22nd, 2011 6:14 am

    Be Careful of seizing. Both stainless and titanium have a nasty habit of seizing up
    which can really ruin your week. Make sure you are using some kind of interface between the screw and insert. Loctite may work, but some kind of antiseize which will prevent galling.

  119. D. Diggler April 22nd, 2011 11:56 am

    Tony, The ti fasteners are about $2.20 a piece.

    Bill, I have some concerns about siezing. I have heard conflicting opinions that: A) Low strength Loctite will work fine. and B) i need to be using something like parktool antiseize (my only worry is that this compound isn’t secure enough for skiing)

  120. Peter R April 22nd, 2011 7:36 pm

    What are these concerns about seizing? Are you talking about corrosion? Galvanic action takes place between dissimilar metals. If the binding inserts and the binding screws are both made from stainless steel, there shouldn’t be a problem… no? Even with a titanium and stainless steel mix, there shouldn’t be much or any corrosion problems. Am I right in saying that Ti doesn’t corrode?

    As we all know, titanium was Gods gift to mountaineers, but they were too cheap to grab the “Holy Grail” and the golfers and bikers flitched it.

  121. jacob October 11th, 2011 3:36 pm

    Anyone interested in buying Quiver Killers can get 15% off.
    Use the code: “ATScrew” on quiverkiller.com

    Pass on the good word!

  122. Sandy Detillieux November 13th, 2011 9:31 am

    I’m sorry if this has already been answered above, but I didn’t see it being addressed.

    I am very interested in installing inserts (either Quiver Killer of Binding Freedom) into a bunch of my skis. Is this gonna be possible with my Manaslus- on the plate?

    If so, how? Could I just drill out the pre-existing “inserts” that Dynafit built into the ski and replace it with these more burly inserts?

    PS I have Maestrale boots with BSL 322
    Bindings are the older “vertical” series- either ST or the FT
    I currently have my FT’s mounted in the pre-existing “insert” that Dynafit built into the ski and things work just fine.

    Thanks a bunch
    Sandy

  123. Paul Brown November 13th, 2011 9:38 am

    In response to Peter R.’s question/concern about seizing, or galling, here is a good reference that explains galling and suggests ways to avoid it:

    http://www.estainlesssteel.com/gallingofstainless.html

    It’s a real concern – I’ve had it happen (not on ski inserts) and it’s no fun.

    One thing is using different alloys of stainless steel for the insert vs the fastener – this reduces the chance of galling. I didn’t find the alloy(s) used on the Quiver Killer or Binding Freedom websites but it may be there.

  124. Sandy Detillieux November 13th, 2011 9:54 am

    a few other questions…
    first, I’m looking at this product:
    http://bindingfreedom.com/Drill-and-Tap-guide-block-4016.htm
    Seems like it could help make sure things go in perpendicular. Any thoughts?

    Second, does anybody know of any REAL difference between the inserts available from Quiver Killer compared to those from Binding Freedom? Seems like Binding Freedom sells them cheaper (Sorry Nick). Are they the same inner & outer thread?

    Finally, Lou, on December 21st, 2010 @ 7:37 AM, you mentioned that it might be wise to use a torque wrench for tightening the fasteners. Is this generally advised?

    Thanks again
    Sandy

  125. Terry Ackerman November 13th, 2011 10:17 am

    Sandy,
    The main installation difference between the BK & QK inserts is the BF inserts have a slot in the top for installation and removal. I’ve installed both and found the threaded installation approach easier than using the slot. For removal, however, the slot is good to have, though it can be stripped if you do not have a good purchase in the slot. The BF 3 in 1 installation tool provides a positive hold. An extractor may be needed at times if there’s a problem for either insert.

    Regarding jigs: keeping the drilling and tapping very close to vertical is ideal and multiple errors in the process may affect swapping and thread life over time. The BF tap and drill block offers an excellent option, but the QK jig, made by SVST is a sweeter option that works for 5/16″ step drills and taps.

    (Discloser/plug: we sell both Binding Freedom & Quiver Killer inserts and mounting tools & supplies.)

  126. Jacob November 13th, 2011 10:31 am

    @ Sandy,

    When you buy QK, there is a great chance that a shop near you will mount them for you.
    I am not sure that the same can be said about BF. I couldn’t find it on their site.

  127. Sandy Detillieux November 13th, 2011 10:48 am

    Jacob, what causes you to say that it might be easier to get a shop to mount QK than BF?

    Also, I’m thinking of doing it myself since all four pairs of skis have already been drilled so it’s not really rocket science to drill out the holes a bit bigger, tap them, and install the inserts.

  128. Jacob November 13th, 2011 11:50 am

    Sandy,
    Quiver Killers has made many connections with ski shops. They are trying to be more available to more types of skiers, not just the do-it-yourselfers.

  129. phil June 6th, 2012 2:51 pm

    is there anyway to remove inserts without chopping up the ski?

  130. Lou June 6th, 2012 5:45 pm

    Yeah, lots of ways. Usually, you can just lock down a screw with a nut on to the insert, then heat, then back it out. If that doesn’t work, an Easy-Out will grab in there and rotate it out, after you heat to soften the epoxy. AND, Binding Freedom inserts have a slot for a flat head screw driver…

  131. Phil June 6th, 2012 7:30 pm

    With the inserts, how do you ensure that there won’t be water ingress beneath the top sheet?

    Since nobody talks about it, perhaps it isn’t a problem…. However, I’m a little nervous/suspicious. I’ve successfully installed inserts in one pair of skis, but perhaps some more experienced installers can give some advice (or tell me not to worry).

    It is a bit hard to describe without a picture, but when you install the inserts, you need to make sure the top of the insert is slightly below the top sheet level so that the binding can sit flush. However, with any insert (including the ones that QK and BF choose to resell), that still leaves a few mm below the top edge of the insert and where the screw flanges flare out. So there is a little gap between the insert and the top sheet. Obviously, the epoxy should protect the interior of the ski. But it looks to me like the weak point in terms of possible delamination is the somewhat exposed top sheet contact with the insert and the layers below.

    Do people try to ensure epoxy ‘fills’ up to the top of the insert – so not leaving any gap between the very top of the insert and the top sheet? With the BF inserts that have the slot- that means keep epoxy from going through the slot. And even with non-slotted inserts, it is tricky to not get epoxy in the inner threads.

    Or, perhaps my concerns aren’t warranted. (I hope I hope)

  132. Terry Ackerman June 6th, 2012 7:39 pm

    I think you are over thinking, Phil. :-)

    Check out the 2nd image from the bottom of our weblog post on
    Binding Freedom & Quiver Killer Stainless Steel Threaded Insert Installation: http://www.slidewright.com/weblog/ski-snowboard/faqs-ski-snowboard/binding-freedom-quiver-killer-stainless-steel-threaded-insert-installation/

    You can see the epoxy in one hole next to the installed insert. I’d suggest not going much deeper than flush with the top sheet and allow the epoxy to ooze around the top perimeter, wipe off the excess but leave a slight ‘rim’.

  133. Phil June 6th, 2012 11:20 pm

    Thanks, Terry.
    I followed the QK (and BF) directions carefully. The whole process was pretty easy/straightforward. Thanks for the clear guidance.
    As you say, I probably am ‘over thinking’ it…

    However… the reason for my concerns is that I DID get water in one of the insert skis. End result was a broken ski. Ah well… they were nearing the end of their useful life anyway. The problem is that I don’t know why/where the water got in. I chose those skis to experiment with because they were delaminating a bit at the tails (foam core cap skis – Head Monster iM95s). So…. the water either got in due to that known flaw – or due to my inserts.

    I’d like to put inserts in another pair of skis, so I want to make sure I’m doing everything correctly. Hence my question! Guess I’ll just give it another (careful) go.

  134. Terry Ackerman June 7th, 2012 6:31 am

    Both a binding screws and and an inserts need holes drilled through the top sheet in order to mount bindings. Other than diameter size, what’s the difference relative to your concerns between installing a screw or an insert?

  135. Phil June 7th, 2012 8:55 am

    Only that with the inserts, you need to be careful not to ooze it into the internal threads to get full glue coverage.. But I think you are right that it isn’t a critical mounting issue. We’d hear a lot of other problems if it were! Thanks for the reassurance/reasoning.

  136. Carol Yarcho's December 11th, 2012 12:28 pm

    Hi,

    I am contacting you about a brand new pair of skis that I had mounted with brand new bindings that were misdrilled. So I bought the skis last spring from a seperate store, they are K2 Coomback (2011) for $800 and then I bought dyna fit bindings from shop X for $450. Shop X misdrilled my bindings and are wanting to refund me $100 from the bindings that I bought from them. These skis are now damaged. I had never drilled them, skied them or anything. What would be the appropriate compensation for this kind of mistake? I know that I can still ski the k2′s with the extra holes. What does this do to the resale value of my k2 skis?

    Is this shop handling this problem that they created correctly?

    Thanks for any help you can give!

    Sincerely,
    Carol Yarcho

  137. Carol December 12th, 2012 4:23 pm

    I have a question about what misdrilled bindings does to the resale value of skis? I had a shop misdrill my dyna fit bindings to some brand new coombacks and they want to compensate me with $100 and I do not feel that this is fair. What should the shop do to make this right? Thoughts? Any feedback would be appreciated. Thank You!

  138. Tyler Beck December 21st, 2012 10:42 am

    Hey Lou,

    I have a pair of Atomic MX20 rando race skis that i need to remount with different binders. 8 original holes – 6 New with a total of 14 holes possible. I wouldnt be worried it if were a regular backcountry ski but these skis are so light and soft. Any thoughts on the remount? Should it be a problem for strength/durabiltiy and should i do anything special when refilling the old holes?

  139. Lou Dawson December 21st, 2012 4:12 pm

    Tyler, I would indeed suspect that drilling a bunch of holes in those skis might not be wise. 6 new is probably ok so long as they’re not to close to the unused ones. Filling with epoxy is probably as good as anything. Don’t just plug them with the plastic beat-in plugs, as those don’t add much strength.

  140. Dan January 23rd, 2013 7:00 am

    Hi Lou. Thanks for the wealth of information you provide. Could you comment on how you think these will hold up on a snowboard, as an alternative to t-nutting from underneath?

    Would you consider normal ski screws to be more or less solid in such an application?

    Putting dynafit low techs on for touring and concerned about the width of each ski.

    Thanks!

  141. tyler beck February 13th, 2013 7:38 pm

    Hey Lou,
    Would you use a 5/32 drill bit for all Dynafit binding mounts (old pozi and new torx) and Sportiva bindings? The screws seem to vary a tiny bit. So, I was curious if there is a rule of thumb of how much bigger your binding screw threads should be than the drill bit.
    To the same point, do you like the fancy ski bits with steps? Lot more options there. 4mmx9 and so forth….
    Thanks!

  142. Dan F February 25th, 2014 8:57 am

    Hello all,
    Hope this is okay place to post this question– I’m wondering if anyone else has had troubles with keeping their bindings tightly affixed to inserts. I recently put inserts (Binding Freedom variety) on my skis for two sets of bindings (FKS 140 & Fritschi Vipec)… with both, the machine screws started to loosen within a couple rides up the chairlift.

    I washed & dried all the inserts & fasteners before use. I’ve been using the recommended threadlocker (Vibratite VC-3), letting it dry before assembly as advised, and torquing the screws down as tight as I dare (i.e., pretty darn hard)– but still, they loosen up. Kind of scary. And tough to ski with a group, when you need to stop & tighten your screws up every other run…

    My internet searching hasn’t revealed other people having this problem, so I’m wondering what I could be doing wrong?

    I’m tempted to switch over to blue Loctite, in spite of the advisory that it can erode plastic. I’m even going to carry some red Loctite, in case I get desperate on tour (though I might never get the bindings back off, if I have to use that.) But I’d like to know if others have had this problem… thanks for any advice!

  143. Josh b February 25th, 2014 9:17 am

    Hey dan!

    I’ve installed hundreds of these inserts on splitboards with pretty good luck, I think the key is making sure you have enough vc-3 and also double check your screw length. The only time I’ve had issues with either ski bindings or splitboard hard wear not staying tight, was when the screws were just a bit to long actually hitting the bottom of the insert before allowing a solid clamping effect between binding and ski. Take your binding off and if you have an extra insert do a dry fit by tightening your screw all the way down and then check for slop… You can also check by counting how many times you turn the screw before you feel resistance, I want to say around 6 or 7 turns. Let us know what you find out!
    Josh

  144. Harpo February 25th, 2014 9:24 am

    Dan, another thing to look at is that earlier generations of bf inserts came with a coating of machine oil u would have to remove with acetone before using. What gen inserts do u have?

  145. Lou Dawson February 25th, 2014 9:47 am

    I’d still always wash parts in solvent before any sort of permanent install using epoxy or Loctite…. you never know what sort of residue is on the metal….

  146. altis February 28th, 2014 2:36 am

    Here’s an idea that I discovered by accident ;)

    Get some sacrificial M5 screws – preferably from the same batch as you’re using to attach the binding. Put a small dob of epoxy adhesive on one and run it in and out of the insert to coat the threads and then let it set. On another screw use a triangular file to create two slots in the threads and one across the end. Then, by working it in and out, use this to remove some of the epoxy until the screw just reaches the bottom comfortably. You’ll need to clean out the slots with a fingernail each time.

  147. Jack February 28th, 2014 12:11 pm

    Altis, I’m befuddled. Your epoxy/sacrificial screw trick coats the internal threads of the insert with epoxy and then removes most of it with second slotted screw. What problem does this solve? I need a clue.
    Jack

  148. altis February 28th, 2014 2:01 pm

    It just tightens up the threads so that the screws don’t rattle loose. A bit like a Nyloc but all the way down.

  149. Kevin March 12th, 2014 9:00 am

    Hey guys,

    So I have had an issue with pulling out an insert that I have in my touring set up. Its a NTN freedom binding on a Faction Candide 3.0. The issue is the top screw of the binding did not land in the mounting plate of the ski so the wood is not strong enough to hold in the insert, even with epoxy. My thought is to drill all the way through the ski and bolt it on the bottom with a washer then cover the bolt with a base patch. Is this a smart way to go about it? In need of advice!!

  150. Josh b March 12th, 2014 9:41 am

    That’s one way of doing it if your quiver killer is failing. I would use a t-nut (nut with three or four prongs) this will keep your screw from spinning. I know you can get a 5mm size online, you might look locally and see if you can find the 5mm or the standard equivalent 3/16″ or even 7/32″. Just to make sure it’s bomber and looks clean,
    measure the base of the t-nut and get a forstner bit the same size and only drill just past the base material. You might want to drill a pilot hole (1/16)from the top first, because you already have a hole from the quiverkiller you’ll wan t to make sure you start from the base centered on that. And because the hole from the quiver killer will be larger then the t-nut shaft it might actually be easiest to fill that hole in first and then drill your 1/16″ pilot hole and then your round hole with the forstner bit. Remember to seal any wood you expose with epoxy! Then just use some colored epoxy or or metal grip and a base patch.

  151. Lou Dawson March 12th, 2014 10:40 am

    T-nut is the exact solution. Also, Kevin, you already know but it bears repeating, as the issue of tele bindings pulling out of skis has been going on far too long (more than 20 years) if you mount tele bindings pick a ski with a reinforced area that allows for all the screws. Or T-nut to begin with. The amount of screw pulling force a tele turn exerts on a binding is phenomenal. Lou

  152. Terry March 12th, 2014 10:49 am

    The type of t-nut will determine drill bit type. For split board conversions, Voile’s kit has t-nuts that can be drilled with a Fortsner or paddle bit. Snoli t-nuts require a beveled hole and a special bit.

  153. Kevin March 12th, 2014 11:53 am

    Awesome advice guys, I’m headed down to the hardware store after lunch, So ill pick up a few different types of t nuts and see what fits best. I work in a ski shop so I have a good amount of resources I just wanted to make sure I was making the right move. If I don’t have the specific bit for the t nut can i just make sure it lies flush against the bottom of the ski and epoxy everything so no moisture gets in anywhere? Also should I even bother with a base patch if everything is flush and sealed? As for missing the mounting plate, all of the other screws are just fine, It was just the one screw out of the eleven the binding requires that missed the mounting plate, guess I should have emailed faction before I started mounting, lesson learned! Thanks again!

  154. Jeremiah April 16th, 2014 12:20 pm

    These seem like a good way to switch the same binding from one ski to another but what if one wanted to put different bindings on the same ski. Something like Fritschi Freerides, Dynafit Radicals, and Silvretta 500′s. Is it possible?

    Looking at the templates it looks like some of the holes overlap a couple a mm here and there so you couldn’t have inserts for all those bindings. The binding plates also don’t seem to cover those bindings. Any ideas for those particular bindings? Am I measuring the templates together wrong?

  155. Lou Dawson April 16th, 2014 3:17 pm

    Jeremiah, you can just vary the boot position on the ski by a few mm to prevent overlap. Either average them both (one slightly ahead and one behind), or place the backcountry binding a few mm back. Also, you might re-examine how much you would really swap bindings. In my experience, these insert systems are like adjustable ski poles in that they seem cool, but in reality may rarely get used due to the time involved in switching bindings and doing so reliably (Loctite, correct torque, etc.)

    Lou

  156. Dave April 16th, 2014 3:19 pm

    I agree with Lou… it is a pain to swap out bindings and now I am bummed I have inserts. Definitely not worth it.

  157. Lou Dawson April 16th, 2014 3:28 pm

    I have to apologize for perhaps sounding a bit too high on the inserts concept. I do actually like them, in their place, but it’s indeed not exactly a minute or two to swap bindings. That’s the rub. Lou

  158. Bill B April 16th, 2014 5:04 pm

    There are other inserts out there that are larger diameter and more secure holding than freedom style.
    3/8″ od or 9mm.
    Maislinger Snoli makes some.
    I have made some, but never pursued it as long
    as the freedom held up.

  159. Frame April 17th, 2014 6:18 am

    Jeremiah, you could consider binding swap plates. Search for dynaduke on this site. One set of holes in the ski’s. Possibility to put more than one binding on the plate.

  160. Jeremiah April 17th, 2014 6:37 pm

    Thanks,
    Yeah, I may have to rethink the whole idea. I may just save my old skis as approach skis with the Silvrettas and then just dump the Fritschi’s when I get a pair of Dynafits. Can’t think of too many reasons to keep both.

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Welcome to Louis (Lou) Dawson's backcountry skiing information opinion website and e magazine. Lou's passion for the past 45 years has been alpinism, climbing, mountaineering and skiing -- along with all manner of outdoor recreation. He has authored numerous books and articles about backcountry skiing and is well known as the first person to ski down all 54 of Colorado's 14,000-foot peaks, otherwise known as the Fourteeners! Books and free back country news and information here, and tons of Randonnee rando telemark info.

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