On the Road – PNW

Post by WildSnow.com blogger | June 21, 2011      

If all goes as planned, we’re up on a PNW mountain today while you’re reading this. The drive out to Washington State was smooth as a Deer Valley groomer, though the pain of fuel prices in Oregon caused us to scream in agony at the most we’ve ever paid for a fillup. Worth it for us because we get to haul our camper around and stay in comfort just about anywhere, but still, you pay prices like that and you find yourself thinking “I’d better skip that dinner out and make a salad…or go on a 3 day fast?”

Oregon, where the fuel is pricy and you too can recycle a beer bottle.

Oregon, where the fuel is pricy and you too can recycle a beer bottle.

The portahut to beat all.

The portahut (tiny house) to beat all, seen in Oregon. This has to be the most awesome homebrew RV I have ever seen. Pretty sure it had a hot tub scabbed onto the back. Looked like it was made all from scrounged materials.

Cascades and wind turbines.

I like the first view of Cascades you see from HWY 90, and was amused by this demonstration that even renewables have a price, be it the materials they're built from or the sacrifice of a view line.


Please Enjoy A Few Suggested WildSnow Posts


52 Responses to “On the Road – PNW”

  1. altis June 21st, 2011 1:06 pm

    $4.20 a gallon and you’re complaining – sheesh!

    Over here in the UK I’m currently paying about £1.36 a litre for diesel which, if Google’s conversions are correct, works out at $8.34 a US gallon.

    Check out some other prices around Europe in the reports here:

  2. Kyle June 21st, 2011 5:50 pm

    ya, avoid crossing the border to BC, just drove my motor bike across the province and the norm seemed to be $1.30 / Litre, almost $5/gallon!

  3. AndyC June 21st, 2011 5:56 pm

    @altis: how much do you pay for health insurance?

    Still, $4.20 is less than the $4.30/gallon (+$15,000/year in health insurance with limited dental, copays, and another expensive policy for long term care; not to mention $5,000/year to support the military to keep the oil coming) I’m paying in rural WA.

  4. Lou June 21st, 2011 6:31 pm

    Just back from the big day on Mount Baker, TR tomorrow. Good night.

  5. SteveG June 21st, 2011 6:35 pm

    Those wind towers are something to see. Right now the owners are crying because due to the massive snow runoff feeding the hydro plants the power grid doesn’t need their juice. Looking at your photo, I’ll bet there was moaning and groaning when those danged ugly telephone poles went up and ruined the view in the 1920’s. 😉

  6. ScottP June 21st, 2011 9:16 pm

    I’m not sure where you’re filling up in Oregon but you must be somewhere in the boonies. Average price of gasoline in Oregon today ($3.828) was almost 4 cents cheaper per gallon than Washington ($3.866), and with a slightly greater difference for diesel (OR: $4.198,WA: $4.245).


    Don’t blame the state because you picked the most expensive station for 100 miles. Maybe you should have bought some food there and enjoyed the total lack of sales tax.

    Of course, it’s still ridiculous that you’re not allowed to pump your own, but contrary to popular belief it doesn’t actually raise the price of gas compared to its coastal neighbors. The average fuel price in OR is nearly always cheaper than WA, and both are always cheaper than CA.

    -Scott (Proud Oregon Native)

  7. ScottP June 21st, 2011 9:26 pm

    Whoops, went off a little half-cocked there. Looks like you paid right about the state average for diesel. It’s still much lower than either WA or CA, though. Where’s this trip going to take you?

    -Scott (P.O.N.)

  8. Randonnee June 21st, 2011 10:25 pm

    Lou the windmill photo appears to be the view from Ellensburg of Mt Stuart, the monarch of the Wenatchee Mountains, and Sherpa Peak to the right. That south side of Mt Stuart is getting skied routinely these days.

  9. Matt Kinney June 21st, 2011 10:37 pm

    Actually it may be better in the long run to see miles of windmills than no snow at all in the PNW (or CO) mountains. This is becoming more clearly evident in today’s release of startling science on the conditions of our oceans. Frankly I thinks it is way to late. We missed our chance to be bold and brave, choosing to be Republican instead.

    4.78 a gallon in Valdez.

  10. Lou June 22nd, 2011 7:27 am

    Jeez, sorry guys, I was comparing to back a few tanks before when we DID get it for about 20 cents a gallon less. But yeah, Oregon is not particularly expensive — but it’s not cheap.

    And yeah, that’s Mount Stuart!

  11. Lou June 22nd, 2011 7:50 am

    Matt, I’d agree that the windmills are cool, don’t really mind them, just like pointing out that our lifestyle always has a cost, even if “renewable.”

  12. Lou June 22nd, 2011 7:53 am

    Oh, and here is the Oregon question for you fuel savvy Oregoneans, when we found cheap gas they were doing a fakie and advertising a price “with PUC.” We of course don’t have a PUC number, is there something you locals know that I don’t, like a website with PUC numbers one can grab and use at stations that reduce price if you’ve got the magic PUC?

  13. Jonathan Shefftz June 22nd, 2011 8:52 am

    That would constitute tax evasion.

  14. Jonathan Shefftz June 22nd, 2011 8:57 am

    Turns out that just as illegal is the advertising practice you saw:

  15. ScottP June 22nd, 2011 8:58 am

    I’ve never seen that that kind of fakie advertising, no idea how to get a PUC number. That’s pretty shady of them to advertise like that, even worse than the cash/credit price diff you see in a lot of places.

    Yeah, as soon as you head east the price of fuel starts dropping, something about the balance of state revenue to expenditure due to more (as yet undepleted) natural resources and fewer people so gas tax is unnecessary (though I’m not sure what Alaska’s problem is). It’s the price we pay to live in coastal states I suppose.

  16. SB June 22nd, 2011 9:15 am

    Telephone/electric poles should be buried. Windmills beat most of the alternatives in my book.

    I also think it is too late. There are too many people, with no slowdown in sight, and the Chinese/Indians/Malaysians and whoever is next still need to learn the basic lessons of poor industrial practices that we mostly failed to learn. Heck we should just get rid of that pesky EPA (or we could make it function correctly, but that would be too hard).

  17. brian h June 22nd, 2011 9:46 am

    SB nails it…The “third world” (I never liked that term) is going to finish what the “first” started. To split the changes the planet is undergoing into categories of “human generated” and “naturally occurring in the span of geologic time” is moot and ostrich like. Earth will rid herself of us. If we don’t do it before she does.

  18. Lou June 22nd, 2011 10:01 am

    Actually, my understanding is that human population growth rate peaked around 1965 and has been dropping ever since. All predictions of our sad demise have been exaggerated or downright disingenuous. Some countries even have a negative or near negative population growth rate. Sure, things could get worse, but it’s also very possible they could get better. Much of this is simply making a choice about how much you want to wallow in negativity, or be optimistic, as you can find plenty of data for either view.

    Predicting the future it tough. But it’s funny how we’re always doing it and many of us seem to just take it as gospel. The future can turn out in very unexpected ways, both good and bad, and scientists don’t have any corner on crystal ball ownership. They’re just people like us with a few more years in college, many of them looking for grant money so they don’t have to go back to washing dishes.

  19. Randonnee June 22nd, 2011 10:10 am

    Hmm, religion and politics discussed here…

  20. Lou June 22nd, 2011 10:13 am

    The religion of global warmism and the politics of ski mountaineering, or something like that (grin)?

    Keep it on the upside, everyone. If you want to devolve to ugly argument, plenty of other places on the web for that.

    To keep it that way, try using humor and self depreciation. Not saying I always live up to my own ideals, but doing so is always worth trying!

    As always, we’ll turn off the comments for this post if it gets too ugly. We of course love comments as much as the next blogger, but we’re not the next blogger so we’re not desperate for attention.

  21. Lou June 22nd, 2011 10:18 am

    What they do with this PUC thing is show a big bold low price on the sign board, with a tiny “with PUC” statement appended. The non PUC price is significantly more. Just when I think I’ve seen it all…

    Jonathan, indeed, it was Pilot where we got scammed and it appears they’ve figured out a way around what Oregon busted them for as reported in the link you provided. Funny, but we were in the exact same situation as the “RV owner who checked prices on gas price website.” I’m about 20 or so dollars poorer, but have to laugh at myself for getting scammed. We’ve vowed to be more careful on the way back, and plan our gas stops. By doing so we can save a significant amount of dough. More, we’re happy to haul our camper around as it is already proving very useful.

  22. Randonnee June 22nd, 2011 10:33 am

    Indeed that view of Mt Stuart from Eburg/ Kittitas Valley is spectacular, That view does inspire mountaineers to seek out those summits.

    The windmills are certainly an intrusion on the landscape- i cannot personally define it or say good or bad, but it is an impact indeed. During my drives to go ski Mt Adams from NCW I have watched them proliferate during the past several years.

    As far as using gasoline, we are fortunate to have such convenience at such a small cost. It is interesting to hear the bashing of the use of fossil fuel while there is no reasonable alternative= all including the greenest petro-nags are completely dependent.. There is no alternative to coal and oil use that would allow us all to live our luxurious lives and also engage in our wonderful sport of skitouring.

  23. Matt Kinney June 22nd, 2011 11:01 am

    I was stunned yesterday on Thompson Pass while skiing above the Worthington Glacier and how in just a decade or two, it is literally melting and rotting in great amounts each season. It is most noticeable in summer when the snows melt completely off the glacier. It used to stay snow capped all year as did other local glaciers. I have seen small glaciers simply vanish. The retreat(melting) is rather amazing. Living a lifetime in heavily glaciated land that I am intimately familiar as a ski guide, I see the profound evidence every day all around me and it is rather sobering. What is there to debate?

    But hey, a bit less crevasse danger is a good thing. Right? 🙂

  24. SB June 22nd, 2011 11:25 am

    I was in the NW last week. A couple of things I noticed:

    1) Both the clearcut logging and the replanted trees (which made me think my vision was fuzzy due to the interference pattern created by their tops) were something of an eyesore as well.

    2) Even though the glacial mass on Rainier increased this year due to the well above average snow, the current prediction is that the glaciers will be gone (stop moving) within 50 years.

    3) There are some interesting coffee shops there.

    4) The weather does suck.

    5) Rental car places and parking lots are as questionable as Lou’s gas station

    6) The volcanoes are impressively big

    Randonee, not to continue to political discussion too much, but most people would say that we haven’t actually tried in any real way to develop alternatives to coal/oil. The worst part is that even if we (US) or any other single country did, others would still use the remaining oil/coal/ng because it is so cheap and with reduced demand would be even cheaper.

  25. Lou June 22nd, 2011 12:32 pm

    SB, I’d agree that our energy alternates are under-developed, but it’s pessimistic to say they’re not there. Nuclear is the gorilla in the room, presently kills fewer people than coal and produces way less CO2, solar/wind/biomass work, natural gas is a bridge, and so on. But as Lovins says, efficiency is the ultimate energy source, and also virtually untapped. The latter really bothers me, as in many cases increasing efficiency requires fairly minor adjustments. Like driving a slight bit less, or turning a thermostat down one degree….

  26. Lou June 22nd, 2011 12:35 pm

    Matt,the debate about global warming is how long will it last, how much will it warm, can it be stopped, and if it isn’t possible to stop, should we be more constructive about getting ready for it instead of using it as a political war club? Plenty to talk about, but it seems to border on religion for some folks and thus difficult to discuss. Lou

  27. Randonnee June 22nd, 2011 1:01 pm

    SB good points. It does seem logical that if the US uses less oil, it just becomes cheaper, and that will benefit the populations of China and India, etc., who just want to drive their cars and live in nice homes like us! Thus there will be no net reduction in use of oil. If the radical green folks have their way the US will become the third world and the third world will flourish in US style standard of living.

    This petro-enthusiast-user has adopted to a battery-powered lawn mower and weed cutter. If I ever buy another motorcycle like my small trials-bike it will be one of the electric motorcycles such as the KTM prototypes. Unfortunately, the market does not drive the availability of such technology, but perhaps soon. I will happily step up for a battery-powered snowmobile when available to use to approach my skitours!

    It is ultimately perplexing politics that discriminate negatively against existing proven energy alternatives including nuclear and hydro power. These power sources are regulated against in favor of popular and profitable “green” (gag) technologies. Lots of siliness.

    BTW SB, some parts of WA near beautiful mountains get 300 days of sunshine annually- er, except for this year 🙁 . Limited opportunities to make a living here, however, so that limits too much immigration from the west across the Cascade Curtain toward the sunshine 8) .

  28. Lou June 22nd, 2011 1:37 pm

    Rando, perhaps you guys can set up the thousand acre solar farms and that’ll employ a ton of folks (grin). But first, we’ll see what the neighbors think about that. Lou

  29. SB June 22nd, 2011 1:41 pm


    Not all environmentally inclined folks are radical greens. I personally would feel much better if we could get to a sustainable lifestyle. As an engineer, I suspect it can be done with no reduction in quality of life, but that remains to be tried and proven. Surprisingly, I don’t think the hard problems will be technical.

    We’ll get to something sustainable eventually whether we want to or not. By doing it sooner, we probably have a chance to pick what sustainable point we get to. As an outdoor enthusiest, I’d like to see us do that soon so that the natural world is preserved as much as possible, but that is where I’m pessimistic. I think we will likely barrel headlong into a completely man-made and controlled world repleat with planetary temperature and weather control. (As an engineer, that sounds interesting to work on, at the least)

  30. Lou June 22nd, 2011 1:53 pm

    SB, then, at the same time technology will allow any man to travel to a remote planet where he will be allowed to play cat/mouse games with Predator and his trophy hunting friends, thus we’ll always be able to find the natural adventure we seek (grin).

  31. Scott June 22nd, 2011 3:18 pm

    “We’ll see what the neighbors think…” There’s been a lot of news lately around here regarding solar, the latest :


    Having solar in the Aspen area will turn into another “S-curves entrance to town” issue. It’ll get discussed, voted on, etc, but nothing will ever happen. I think most would love to have solar, but they don’t want to deal with having solar panels in their backyard, or God forbid, that they would have to look at someone else’s.

    Maybe the Amish have been on to something all along…..

  32. Lou June 22nd, 2011 3:39 pm

    I swear, some of those nimbies would complain if the grass in their view was not the right shade of green. Really amazing view at one of the more unpleasant aspects of human nature.

  33. gonzoskijohnny June 22nd, 2011 5:39 pm

    $5.39/ gal 4/28/2011, bridgewater california (on way to sawtooths/crater crest skiing)-i’d attach the photo if i knew how…..
    >$ 500 RT from golden in gas alone. But i used the old westfalia vanagon for 17 days in the sierras- 20mpg isn’t too bad for a rolling apartment and american version of a euro trailhead hut/bar/cafe stocked with pilsner and sierra nevada. Came in handy after skiing mammoth, Esha Pk, Woods mtn, etc., with R & R time at the crowley lake hot springs with the ski models too….
    You gotta choose your toys my man- big truck = big gas bill.
    When i act like a faux greenie cheepskate, I use the Tdi jetta- 58 mpg with the cruise at 80 MPH (but no free hotel room at the trailhead) and tuns of room for gear.
    If we compare the $ invested in the vehicle, and in the gear inside the rig (for those of us that have to pay for it), the fuel cost is pretty minimal no matter what- and $ 5 gas means way fewer turistas plugging the higways on the way…..

  34. dmr June 23rd, 2011 7:18 am

    I’m amazed at the poor mpg of the current fleet of cars (everywhere, but especially in the US). For those of you who love engineering and tinkering, here are a few links:

    1) A car that runs on compressed air:

    2) A modern car that gets 300 mpg:

    3) A VW hybrid that gets 313 mpg:

    4) A car from 1980 that got 158 mpg:

    5) The current world record holding vehicle that got 5385 km (3339 miles) per gallon:

    6) And a modified production car that got 376 mpg way back in 1973:

    While some of these might not carry skis very well (and no place to sleep in the back), the engineering and imagination demonstrates what is possible (or in certain cases was already possible even 40 years ago).

    One last tidbit I found (http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/prns/bird.htm):

    “John W. Gulley, of Gratz, Kentucky, managed 115 mpg from his 8-cylinder Buick by using a similar vaporizing method as that employed by L.M. Beam. “Detroit interests” bought and suppressed the device in 1950.


  35. Lou June 23rd, 2011 7:28 am

    DMR, fun links, thanks, actually, my 3/4 ton rated Silverado with Duramax gets amazing fuel economy for a 7,000 lb stuff hauler. If I drive with care during highway travel, I can average 14 mpg with the camper, just under 20 mpg without. Of course diesel packs more punch per gallon and thus takes you slightly farther than gasoline (and costs more), but still, that is pretty cool considering what I do with that truck (hauling a car hauler trailer with a Jeep on it, hauling camper, hauling trailer and camper up to AK last spring with 4 guys, doing construction work, running a huge bumper and winch so a deer doesn’t kill us, etc). The rig is quite the tool and at this point in our lives very worth the cost of use and ownership, though yes, you get what you pay for and running a truck like that is not cheap.

  36. Scott June 23rd, 2011 7:49 am

    More on the Aspen area solar scene, “you can have it but only this much, and don’t let me see it….”


    BTW, our ’94 honda civic with 220K averages 40 mpg. The new tires I just put on the car cost more than the car is probably worth….

  37. Lou June 23rd, 2011 7:55 am

    That Aptera is really really cool. I want one. Instead of dingy towing behind our RV, we could just lift it up and put it on the roof! aptera.com

  38. jmr June 23rd, 2011 1:59 pm

    well i just calculated it.. gasoline is 9.2 USD/gallon over here and it is a 1200 mile round trip to get to my home mountain. :mrgreen:

  39. Jon Rhoderick June 23rd, 2011 2:18 pm

    I’ll go out there and say it. Wind turbines are BEAUTIFUL! Especially when compared to a smokestack. When people complain about solar panels leading to glare I think they should just feel lucky they have access to sunglasses, why let aesthetics take the reins over practicality?

  40. dmr June 24th, 2011 1:41 am

    Hi Lou,

    Glad that you liked the links. I posted them both for fun and just to show that it won’t take some great technological revolution to get to high fuel effeciency since the technology, innovation and creativity to do so already exist.

    It was not a comment at all on your gas consumption habits. Even with 14mpg, you seem to usually travel as a group, plus you have your lodging that follows you everywhere. So there’s definitely energy conservation in this approach.

    I have a former boss who had a small electric car that he used in town for short trips and getting groceries, and then had a wagon for the family outings or longer drives. I think he filled up his wagon like once every two months. While having two vehicles could certainly be debatable regarding conservation, when it comes to fuel consumption / car pollution, I think that it’s a potential model to explore.

    When the Smart cars came out in the late 1990s (joint venture between Swatch and Mercedes) I think that the original sales model tried to implement this idea: Smart car owners would have access one weekend per month or X weeks per year to a Mercedes wagon for vacations, hauling stuff, etc. It worked well in the Paris region at the time.

  41. LePistoir June 24th, 2011 11:30 pm

    Blah blah “sacrifice of a view line” blah. Tell me smog doesn’t block a view line too. Just taking cheap shots at renewables doesn’t do anything for getting people cleaner energy.

  42. LePistoir June 24th, 2011 11:55 pm

    Props for dropping Lovins’ name, given that he lives with you in the valley and has been writing on alternatives forever. Reducing the impact of our energy use starts with, well, reduction. That could come in the form of reduced use, increased efficiency, or lower-impact forms of energy -all entailing serious lifestyle choices. Higher snow levels or less fruit shipped from New Zealand, get ready to change your lifestyle one way or the other. Maybe even learn to love fields of windmills because of how they are saving other things we hold dear, like a cooler, snow-friendlier climate.

  43. Lou June 25th, 2011 8:25 am

    Lepist, I happen to know Amory though haven’t conversed in years. Worked as a carpenter for a couple of years on the Rocky Mountain Institute facility in Old Snowmass near where we live. He knew I was a mountaineer and he had some trends in that direction in his youth, so we’d have an occasional chat about that sort of thing, along with what kind of wood to use for his library shelves. I’ve read several of his books, my favorite was “Brittle Power.”

    As for renewables, I’m not taking cheap shots, only pointing out that they’re not free, as that’s of interest to me because a bunch of windmills in a view line is a real environmental impact, whether you like it or not. Even if they look good, it’s still a man made impact, just as a gas well head is.

  44. XXX_er June 27th, 2011 10:15 am

    note that up in BC and just about everywhere else in the world diesel fuel costs less than regular gas …only in the U.S. is diesel more expensive

  45. Lou June 27th, 2011 10:25 am

    exer, thanks, yeah, I’ve noticed that, any idea why it costs more for us? Supply and demand, as in our massive trucking industry using zillions of tons of the stuff? Or is it something else? Some web research we need to do?

  46. XXX_er June 27th, 2011 4:44 pm



    I paid an average of 12cents a liter LESS for diesel in northern BC for the last 10 years ,unfortunatley Canada is about the population of California so the North American car market is really just the U.S. market because Canada amounts to the market share for one state

    nobody in the U.S. is going to buy a small diesel car or truck so no car maker will make it SO canada doesnt get the cool small diesels the rest of the world gets even tho we got cheap diesel

  47. Lou June 27th, 2011 5:37 pm

    Exer, I appreciate your comments but the anti American mythology I could do without. While it’s probably somewhat true that supply and demand have some role in what vehicles are available, in terms of small diesels, it’s common knowledge that our diesel emissions standards are stricter than Europe and of course WAY stricter than other areas/countries who have no standards or virtually no enforcement. Thus selling the same cars and trucks over here is difficult and can be quite costly as they have to be modified or built differently. So yes, perhaps consumers don’t want to pay more than folks pay in Europe, but, sorry, but we don’t want the pollution that chokes places like the Inn valley so we have strict standards. If those standards delay the adoption of millions of diesel engines, then so be it. That is much better in the long run, in my view.

    “The 50-state light-duty vehicle limit for emissions of nitrogen oxides is 0.07 grams per mile. In Western Europe, the limit is 0.29. Reducing NOx to nitrogen and oxygen is much harder with a diesel engine because the exhaust is typically cooler and contains less oxygen compared to a gas engine. To meet U.S. regulations, diesel engines are required to use complicated–and expensive–high-pressure fuel injection and after-treatment systems that in some cases inject an aqueous urea solution to handle the NOx. The added expense of course means an even longer payback period for the consumer.”

    Above from http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/diesel/4330313

    And everyone, if I’m wrong about above, apologies, but it continues to be what I find when I research.

  48. AndyC June 27th, 2011 5:58 pm

    I know lots of people who would buy small, efficient diesel cars and trucks. I just hope it doesn’t happen until they fully solve the particulate emission problem. Diesel particulates have caused major problems in asthma in children all over Europe since they started pushing small diesel vehicles to reduce chemical pollution. In my area, there was a 50% increase in adult onset asthma due to diesel (especially big trucks and ships) emissions. The particulates produced by diesels are some of the most carcinogenic substances known. I have heard that special filters are being used on some diesels now to reduce emissions of particulates but I have seen no data on how effective they are. Tacoma and Seattle retrofitted their school buses with filters to reduce particulate emissions.

    Re: price of diesel. The low price of diesel was used as a big selling point for the larger light trucks and vans in the US. Given the great success in selling these vehicles, which are also very good for towing (altho I bought a truck with a hemi for that) and the overall switch to smaller more fuel efficient vehicles, it has proven to be an opportune time to stick it to those who bought those expensive diesels (as well as pushing increases in gas prices followed by smaller decreases resulting in higher and higher acceptable prices).

    There is no free market in oil/gas/diesel in the US or the world and prices do not reflect supply and demand; they are mostly (20-60% above cost-of-production and supply curves) the result of plain old market manipulation by near monopolies (refineries, which for the most part operate at less than 90% of potential 90% of the time) and speculation. Pax vobiscum if you believe in a free market–in nomini patri, et filii, et spiritu sanctu, Amen.

  49. Lou June 27th, 2011 6:22 pm

    The particulate and other filters on recent diesel light trucks in U.S. are nothing less than amazing. You can stand behind my Silverado/Duramax exhaust pipe and not even know the truck is running. Just amazing. Costs a bundle per each vehicle apparently (at least a grand, is what I’ve heard) but very worth it.

  50. XXX_er June 28th, 2011 10:50 am

    “”Exer, I appreciate your comments but the anti American mythology I could do without. “”

    Which do you find anti-American ,the link which was appears to be written by an American or a Canadians view of the north American car market ?

    It was not my intention to be anti American and I don’t see it but in any case the emission thing it is fixable ,all that is required is to throw money at the problem but why bother spending the money on reasearch if diesel fuel is more expensive and nobody in the U.S. is going to buy a diesel engine in a small car ?

    I ran a VW TDi for the last 10yrs and it was cheaper to operate than a gasser but only when diesel averaged 50cents a U.S. gallon cheaper than RUG SO if I had to pay what you folks do for diesel I would have just bought a gasser instead and I expect most amercians would do the same

  51. Lou June 28th, 2011 11:11 am

    Exer, I’ll admit I’m sensitive, can’t blame me, the amount of bashing we get… if you didn’t intend it that way then my apologies. I just don’t think the American consumer is to blame for us not having more small diesel cars available in North America. Much more to it than that. Lou

  52. XXX_er June 28th, 2011 1:18 pm

    well I thot my post blamed the American petro industry and whatever agencies keep the price of diesel fuel high and if it did not that was my intention

    The American public is smart enough to know that small diesel cars don’t make sense from a $$$ standpoint because of the higher tooling costs and the higher fuel costs and the car makers are smart enough to know they can’t sell small diesels and make money

    the people I always wonder about are the bandwagon jumper-on-ers who say they want all them cool foreign cars with small diesels that they see on the internet but they haven’t a clue about the very good reasons why they don’t and its very simply … MONEY

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    Backcountry skiing is dangerous. You may be killed or severely injured if you do any form of ski mountaineering, skimo randonnee and randonnée skiing. The information and news on this website is intended only as general information. Due to human error and passing time, the information, text and images contained within this website may be inaccurate, false, or out-of-date. By using, reading or viewing the information provided on this website, you agree to absolve the owners of Wild Snow as well as content contributors of any liability for injuries or losses incurred while using such information. Furthermore, you agree to use any of this website's information, maps, photos, or binding mounting instructions templates at your own risk, and waive Wild Snow owners and contributors of liability for use of said items for ski touring or any other use.

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