Air drying the sleep systems in the Winds. Three different sleepers rendered three distinct sleep systems.
I sleep cold. For some of you, that’s old news. On the last trip to the Winds, I slept in a mid, wearing all my warm clothes, in a 19-degree rated Patagonia down sleeping bag, and had several cold cold nights. Those clothes included Lycra tights, old down puffy pants, a R1 hoody, a midweight top, DAS Light Hoody jacket, a hat, and a buff. I learned my lesson: lighter sometimes does not mean faster if you’re not recovering with solid sleep. A few key changes this go around, we borrowed a lightweight Nallo 3 Hilleberg tent which we thought would be warmer (it was) and easier to set up (the tent required little extra shoveling to reinforce). Thanks for the tent Jed. What follows is a breakdown of the three different sleep systems used on the trip.
The Cold Sleeper Sleep System (Jason):
Sleeping bag: TNF Inferno 0F Down
I carried a heavier but warmer sleeping bag while using the same inflatable Thermarest NeoAir XTherm pad. The bag I chose was The North Face’s Inferno 0F Down bag. It’s a straight-up mummy bag, weighing 1288g/2.8lbs (compression stuff sack adds 146g), and features a half-length center zip and 800-fill water repellant Pro Down. I was sleeping to the side of a tight-fitting tent and awoke each morning to dew along the length of the bag and on the foot section. This was remedied with some brief drying time either in the AM or as we set up camp in the PM. Also, the down, which is purportedly treated to be hydrophobic, did not wet out. I was also able to stow my boot liners in the sleeping bag to dry at night. All good so far. The key here is how TNF rates this bag. They claim it is a 0F or -18C sleeping bag. This is likely accurate for warm or even warmish sleepers.
The older model of the TNF Inferno 0-degree Down sleeping bag.
For a look at sleeping bag ratings, Thermarest has a thorough breakdown of the newish EN/ISO sleeping bag rating standards. To simplify, sleeping bags have a range of temps where they are comfortable. Want more reading on the rating issue, Backpacking Light also provides insights.
One’s comfort range in a sleeping bag depends on several variables, the least of which are an individual’s “sleep temperature.” So, for example, the venerable folks at Feathered Friends (they make lovely sleeping bags) state, “Hearty climbers and thru-hikers may be willing to utilize other insulating layers to extend the comfort range of their bags (or just be a bit more uncomfortable in order to save weight), while particularly cold sleepers may want to select a bag up to 20-degrees colder than the temperatures they anticipate experiencing,” on their website.
I’m the type opting for the colder-rated bag to extend the comfort range. On this trip, I expected outside temps anywhere from the mid-20s to the mid-teens at night. I’m pretty certain that’s what we got. Inside the tent, however, with three of us sardined inside, the air temps were warmer. For me, the TNF Inferno 0F keeps me warm at 10-degrees or above temps when sleeping in an old Craft midweight top, basic tight-fit synthetic boxers, thick wool ski socks, and a hat. If I need to, I cinch down the hood, wear a buff, and seal out any potential drafts. I can zip open the half-length zip to cool off. I was comfortable in the lower teens and slept with Lycra ¾ length tights on one occasion. As a cold sleeper, the TNF Inferno 0F Down is a solid choice for me down to say 10 degrees without having to layer up with a puffy and puffy pants. Although, I did pack Patagonia’s new DAS Light Pants to be released next fall. They rule, save your pennies. More on those in a week or so.
I think on a legit 0-degree night, I’d be on the chilly side with this sleeping bag even with the extra layers. But that’s still an unknown for me. I’ve got a 25-year-old Feathered Friends bag rated to -20 with some overfill down in there if I suspect Arctic temps.
The Thermarest NeoAir XTherm sleeping pad. A R-value of 6.9 and weighing 524g with a stuff sack and patch kit. It packs down to roughly the size of a 1-liter Nalgene bottle.
Sleeping Pad: NeoAir XTherm Sleeping Pad (regular, I’m 5’10”)
As advertised, the NeoAir XTherm is relatively compact, easy to roll up and stash, and weighs 524g/1.15 lbs. (This is a mummy shape pad, not rectangular). The R-value on this pad is 6.9. Of the line of Thermarest pads, the NeoAir XTherm’s R-value is the highest-rated. Like home insulation, the R-value indicates how well the insulation, or in this case a sleeping pad, resists heat loss. The pad is also roughly $230.00, so not exactly cheap.
The bottom line is this pad works, and for the abuse I’ve given it on several ski traverses, so far, it is durable. The pad comes with a small repair kit.
Pre-sleep/during sleep routine:
I drank a cup of hot tea before bed to stoke my core. I did not, for those needing to know, bring a pee bottle. I’m good, at this point, at jumping up, donning booties, scurrying outside to pee, and hurrying back in. From my experience, holding pee is uncomfortable, and I get stressed just thinking of holding it while a quick jaunt outside solves the world’s problems or at least some of the minor ones.
Kelly Cordes
The warmer sleeper and tougher sleeper
Sleeping Bag: Patagonia Fitz Roy 850-fill-power Down with a temperature rating of 30F/-1C
An older version of Patagonia’s Fitz Roy 850-fill-power down sleeping bag with a temperature rating of 30F/-1C. Kelly used an old version. The new version features a near full center zip. Kelly, a seasoned bivy-sufferer, was right at home with some extra clothes to offset colder temps when using this bag along with a two-piece sleeping pad system.
The bag weighs 683g/1.5lbs (without a stuff sack) and has a partial-length center zip that extends roughly 1/2 of the bag’s length. The new version’s zip is centered and runs near full length. I slept in my basic clothing system, which never left my body for six days: Merino short-sleeve T, Airshed Pro hooded pullover, buff, Cap Air bottoms, ultralight (3oz) soft shell prototype pants. I’d rotate in my dry pair of midweight wool socks (alternated two pairs, skiing and sleeping), plus a bitchin pair of synthetic booties (2.2 oz/pr). Most nights I added a light vest and a midweight shelled fleece hoody, both protos, plus a hat. On nights when the temps were expected to fall into the teens, I added my DAS Light Hoody and DAS Light Pants (both synthetic), sometimes fully worn, other times draped as partial blankets. All but the buff (Scarpa) and booties (Enlightened Equipment) are Patagonia, as I work for them in the Field Testing Department.
The Thermarest NeoAir XLite sleeping pad with a R-value of 5.4. Kelly used this pad in conjunction with a 1/8” Evazote foam pad from Gossamer Gear.
The 1/8” Evazote foam pad from Gossamer Gear.
Sleeping Pad: Thermarest NeoAir XLite (women’s; it’s my exact height at 66”), plus a 1/8″ Evazote pad.
The NeoAir XLite has a R-value of 5.4. I used the inflatable pad plus an Evazote foam pad from Gossamer Gear, cut to matching length. Adding a thin foam felt key, boosted warmth (a tip I gleaned from Backpacking Light forums), weighed only 68g, kept my Neo from sliding around, and I’d carry it on the outside of my pack to use at rest stops.
Pre-sleep/during sleep routine:
Drink hot water with a bouillon cube (yummm, salt) early, and follow with warm tea just before bed. I then tend to my horror-show toes. I do bring and use a collapsible pee bottle, which is treacherous. I’m sort of an expert. On this trip, that expertise was challenged, but not defeated.
Shown here, the Hilleberg Nallo 3 tent. This three person storm-worthy tent provided a warm sleep climate. All for a slick ~ 2.2 kg/4lbs 14oz wihout stuff sacks and stakes. We split the tent into three parts and divided the weight: poles, outer tent, fly.
Brian Parker
The Warmish (Goldilocks) Sleeper
I’m the middle child of this group: I don’t sleep super warm, nor too cold, just like my porage (the three bears were totally down with carbo-loading, no?). I also don’t have the extensive “disaster style” experience to quell my fear of sleepless nights that Kelly has. I’m not falling into the 30-degree sleeping bag heresy on a trip like this. In my opinion, there’s no reason to blur the strict boundaries between Type I and Type II fun when it comes to sleep. Also of note, I’m a 9-5 working stiff, not a Patagonia gear tester nor Wildsnow editor; gear is not thrown at me.
If you’re sensing any schwag envy, it’s in your head, really.
But, yes, I have a modest quiver of sleeping bags, but the bag I brought is my lightest, most packable bag, and has kept me warm through a huge cross-section of Wyoming weather, sans the depth of winter.
The venerable Marmot Helium 15-degree down sleeping bag.
Sleeping Bag: Older version of the Marmot Helium 15-degree down sleeping bag.
My sleep system changed little from last year’s Winds trip. I used an OG version of the venerable Marmot Helium 15-degree sleeping bag on both excursions (freaking love this bag, a bit remiss my son has started to bogart it on family adventures). The new version comes stock with a near full-length side zip; the zip system on my older Helium 15-degree also runs down the side but for ½ the bag’s length (ounces make pounds). The Helium is filled with 800+ Goose down. It weighs ~935g/2 lbs. without a stuff sack.
Technically, this is a three-season bag. The latest version (mine’s too old to find stats), according to Marmot, has a tested comfort rating of 22-degrees and a lower tested limit of 10-degrees. I’d say the 15-degree rating is accurate for those of us warmish (Goldilocks) sleepers. The fit of the bag is a traditional mummy. I’ve got room inside for extra clothes, thrash about in a semi-controlled manner, and side sleep. However, due to the lack of a full zip to vent, better place your bet it’s going to be chilly.
Big Agnes Air Core Ultra (22oz/624g) sleeping pad as part of my sleep system. The comparative R-value, at 1.4, is significantly lower than Kelly’s (5.4) and Jason’s (6.9) sleeping pad choices.
Sleeping Pad: Big Agnes Air Core Ultra 25″x78″
I also used a Big Agnes Air Core Ultra (624g/1.4 lbs.) sleeping pad as part of my sleep system. The comparative R-value, at 1.4, is significantly lower than Kelly’s (5.4) and Jason’s (6.9) sleeping pad choices. Their pads both measure 2.5″ in thickness; the Air Core Ultra measures a full ¾” thicker at 3.25″. I have a Big Agnes Insulated Q Core (964g/2.12 lbs.) that I use for river trips and horse packing, but I was trying to cut weight wherever possible, so I took the Air Core Ultra at the expense of insulative value based on the forecast. Big Agnes says their pads with a R-value of 3 or higher are for colder seasons. The Air Core Ultra pad is also about $140.00 retail in the 78″ length, whereas the regular size NeoAir XTherm will cost you $230.00, while the Neo XLite costs $200.00 in size regular. My pad is rectangular. The other two pads mentioned above are mummy-shaped.
Unlike Jason in the warmer bag, who stripped down to who knows what, but pretty sure I caught sight of something skimpy in a leopard skinned motif — looked very euro and probably Dynafit— I slept in the following clothes. Up top, I wore a Patagonia Airshed Pro with a short sleeve light-Capilene as an upper base layer. If it felt like it was going to be cold, or we slept higher, I donned my hooded Arc’teryx AT Proton FL jacket. I always slept in a hat and used earplugs. (Note, all three of us wore Airshed Pros daily as we skinned and skied. This was the one piece of agreed-upon cannot-do-without clothing item.)
Stay focused here because this upcoming piece is a gem. KUIU makes the piece I’m referring to, they are a hunting-focused outdoor gear/clothing company. (I live in Wyoming; of course, I hunt. And Jason and Kelly enjoyed the elk tacos.) The bottoms I cherish are the Ultra Merino 145 Zip-off bottoms. Yup, a 90% merino wool 10% nylon 3/4 length bottom layer. With the full side zips, and boot top length, you can, if you desire, wear them under ski pants without interfering with your boots.
The Ultra Merino 145s are a super versatile long underwear option, particularly for shoulder seasons, spring tours, or chasing elk in the fall. The beauty is you can wear them under softshell pants, which I both hunt and ski in. Use them during cool mornings, then as the day heats up, drop trow, unzip and voila, you’re off again; easy on and easy off. There is no need to take your ski pants off to strip this baselayer. These are also quite sweet under hard shells; they allow copious venting.
Based on the pre-trip forecast, I made the last-minute call to drop my puffy pants but kept the KUIUs for additional layering flexibility. No regrets about this call. One colder night, I did wear my softshell pants, but that was overkill and too warm.
Pre-sleep/during sleep routine:
My pre-sleep routine was basic. I hydrated pre and post after dinner with a warm drink and a Nuun tab and often ate a snack before bed. There was no pee bottle system for me. I’ll also attest that this year’s shelter selection, the Nallo 3 tent, was markedly warmer than last year’s selection of a mid.
Jason Albert comes to WildSnow from Bend, Oregon. After growing up on the East Coast, he migrated from Montana to Colorado and settled in Oregon. Simple pleasures are quiet and long days touring. His gray hair might stem from his first Grand Traverse in 2000 when rented leather boots and 210cm skis were not the speed weapons he had hoped for. Jason survived the transition from free-heel kool-aid drinker to faster and lighter (think AT), and safer, are better.
20 comments
Interested in the rest of your clothing systems. Did you bring down jackets in addition to the Das light jackets?
I’ve been experimenting with a light bag (600g total) and a 450g down jacket in addition to a DAS light, base layers, naked alpha mid layer, wind shirt, synthetic insulated pants, softshell pants, and very light waterproof over pants and jacket
I’ve had mixed results so far
Hey Tom, I’ll let Brian and Kelly jump in.
Bottoms: For me, I packed TNF Futurelight Summit full-zip pants. I wore them next to skin, with great protection when needed and venting as well. Kept the moisture from a big storm at bay. (Best pants ever for me.) 3/4 length Lycra bottom for added insulation (used them once while sleeping.) Das Light insulated pants. Two pair boxers. Three pairs of ski socks—two thin sets rotated for skiing, one thick pair for apres and sleeping. Cheap synthetic booties for camp (they are great).
Up top, Airshed Pro, 1 x light Capilene T-shirt, 1 x Craft midweight top for sleeping, TNF Futurefleece fullzip hoody (lighter than a R1, works great over Airshed Pro if it gets cold. I wear the Airshed Pro next to skin). Das Light jacket (medium), and a Patagonia Pluma hardshell jkt (Gore-Tex Pro). A buff and ski hat, + a headband.
Hands: Liners: BD Wind Hood Gridtech Gloves (loved them but they fell apart) + BD Lightweight Screentap gloves. Full Glove: BD Enforcer Gloves (love them). Overmitts: brought along the outershell (no liners) for the OR Alti Mitt, they are semi-insulated Gore-Tex.
All told, I used everything except the overmitts. I used an EZ Fit neoprene heel sock to prevent any potential hot spots on the heels. I used a Hyperlite Porter 4400 pack (first trip with it and that was an ah-hah!), Dynafit TLT X boots (not to be dismissed as too soft), and Black Crow Mentis skis (high praise for these sticks).
Hi Tom,
Given the season, temps, and related potential forms of precip, we didn’t bring any down. I gambled and did not bring my venerable R1 hoody and brought my Proton FL hoody instead. I spent an inordinate amount of brain power on this decision. Long standing dependable friend or take a chance on the new flame? In hindsight, really glad I made the choice I did. Super versatile, slept in it a night or two, great when I needed a bit more wind resistance and/or insulation than my Airshed Pro afforded. Note, almost exclusively wore the Airshed Pro next to skin given the temps. Hope this helps dial in your system.
Thanks, really appreciate the time you guys have taken to go into detail about this. There’s nothing like the competing thoughts of being too cold and having a brutally heavy pack to cause obsessing over gear!
The airshed pro sounds great
I’m in New Zealand, where we sadly can’t get our hands on an airshed pro. I do have a houdini air though. I haven’t thought about using it as a baselayer, but might experiment with that (maybe over a merino T shirt). How does the airshed compare to a houdini air?
I’ve found naked polartech alpha be awesome in damp conditions top and bottom (I had to make the pants as you can’t seem to buy alpha pants anywhere)
Totally agree with you that the HMG porter is an ah-ha piece of gear
I use both the Houdini Air and the Airshed Pro a ton — the HA is definitely more of a windshell-type piece, as it’s entirely made of woven shell-type fabric. It lets some air through, which is why it’s so sweet, like you don’t overheat the way you would with the regular Houdini (at least I don’t). The ASP, though, is a hybrid piece that works great as what I’d maybe call an “extended range baselayer.” Much of it (the main body and upper arms) is a lightwt woven soft shell fabric that’s a bit softer in feel than the HA, making it more comfy against the skin, and that fabric is also a solid notch more air permeable than the HA, thus more breathable feeling, but less wind resistant. The lower arms/forearms and the hood on the ASP are lightweight Capilene, so super stretchy and comfy there but little wind resistance. I freakin love the way it works in the hood, though, stretchy and snug, actually adds a lot. There’s my gear geek analysis of the two pieces :), hope it helps!
Polartec Alpha is sweet, btw, totally agree. That low-density high-loft fleece seems to dry really fast, too. I bet wearing that with your Houdini Air over top results in a pretty huge usability range, like in terms of temps and conditions.
Hey Tom, I think my system was somewhat similar to yours, particularly in concept — lighter bag, and use the clothes you’re already carrying to bump-up the insulation. Jason, being of the more refined sort (what’s that fairytale, the Princess and the Pea?), goes the other way. Given how strong he was while skinning, I can’t diss his methods (alas, I still try).
Thus, most of my clothing system is already listed in the text about sleeping: Merino short-sleeve T, Airshed Pro, buff, hat, Cap Air bottoms, ultralight soft shell prototype pants, midweight wool socks, light vest, midweight shelled fleece hoody (very similar to Brian’s Arc Proton FL), DAS Light Hoody & Pants. I also brought liner socks (my boots are a little big on me), waterproof/breathable shells, and gloves.
It has to be desperately cold for me to wear my shells in my sleeping system — I find they make me clammy and uncomfortable. Maybe that’s how Jason feels wearing practically anything in his sleeping bag. Anyone remember the movie Raising Arizona? “Nobody sleeps naked in this house, boy!” Anyway, as we see in this article, guess it’s all about individual gradations, isn’t it?
Shells: I brought my old Patagonia Spraymaster pants — best name ever, btw — full side zips, 7.5oz, and one of the only items that I never wore. Jacket was a Patagonia Stormracer, the older version with the standard front zipper, 6.9oz, wore this many times, mostly for wind protection.
For gloves I wore a pair of thin dry-tooling-type climbing glove, basically just leather palms with synthetic elsewhere. Brought my beloved Showa 282 TemRes gloves, which are absolutely the best ice climbing and alpinism glove available — even though they’re made for ice fishing and cold-weather industrial work. They’re about $20 and absolutely awesome. Go2Marine.com sells a version with a gauntlet, which I use, and I glue-on a fleece nose wipe patch because the rough shell material chafes. I’d call these midweight warmth (with terrific dexterity, hence their being key for climbing), and since my hands do pretty well, I barely used them on this trip. I also brought some lightweight Primaloft mittens, which can slide over my other gloves, but never came even close to needing them. Gloves are one area where I’m cautious and air on the side of overkill; if you lose functionality in your hands, things can spiral super fast.
Anyway, hope that helps and good luck with things in NZ!
Re. The Neoairlight Womens. The one we have in the house (several years old) was warmer (and heavier) than the ‘unisex’ models of the time. It basically split the difference in warmth between the standard XLite and XTherm, but with the lighter weight fabrics of the XLite.
Is that what yours is Kelly?
Hey Slim, sounds like it might be the same — I got it in 2018, and indeed mine splits the warmth diff at R=5.4, but is still about the same weight (12oz) as the XLite regular length. I think the key there is that my women’s NeoAir XLite is smaller sized. Me being a little tyke, it works well. In the past I’ve often gone with 3/4 length pads anyway, and stuffed my empty pack and other debris under my feet to compensate. As we all know, the long, wide pads sure are sweet, except for the part about having to carry them!
Very interesting – good comparison! FWIW, I also have an older Helium EQ bag, and took it to India some years ago. On some of the colder nights I ended up wearing my down jacket and pants to bed, but here in Australia it agrees well with the official rating – for me. However, I use a higher R mat, not 1.4 on snow. Those KUIU pants look great; I might have to get some.
In the past I’ve used a 0°C/32°F bag on snow, but it was only tolerable when combined with a lightweight down jacket and pants. Since I suffer at least as much if I overheat, anything warmer than the Helium is overkill here as it rarely gets below ~-10°C/14°F. My custom US down bag proved intolerably hot, but a female friend thinks it’s great…
Very practical writeup as each person is different and temp ratings on bags have to be taken with a grain of salt. I have the same 15 deg Marmot Helium bag. It is warm. I have slept clear nights in the bag in a tent with a friend with the temp dropping below zero and been just a little cold. I sleep a little warm, with a full length thin baselayer and a balaclava and the Xtherm. I think sharing a tent and the Xtherm make a huge difference.
I think this is a great article, because it shows how different insulation levels can work for people under the same conditions.
Usually, we read a write up from one person: “I used system X, and it was warm enough”.
Thanks to all three of you for putting in the time to write this up.
After a decade of bivying under tarps or a Mid, used a burly single wall tent last winter and was blown away by how much warmer a tent is. On that trip I aslo used a light rectangular synthetic summer bag over top a -10 C down zipped open like a quilt. I’ve grown claustrophobic in my older age, and also really need to side or front sleep for comfort. I found the room really nice, and also the synthetic is really nice for moisture proofiing (both condensation from tent walls and also my body). I’m now going to try a for spring trips -7 C synthetic Nemo side sleeping bag, wearing my synthetic pants and Patagonia DAS Parka, and consider getting an ultralight down quilt as yet another layering option for mid winter.
So where did you guys end up skiing using the energy from those good nights of sleep? Would love to see a trip report. I did a traverse there in April 1989 using pre-historic gear, sleeping well in a VE24 and had a blast! Thanks
Hi David, I was glad not to be on my touring gear from 1992. We began at the Sweet Water Gap TH, in the southern end of the range, and moved north. Thought we could outrun a potential storm coming down from AK, and we were wrong. Had pretty solid weather throughout, until the predicted storm came in. We were also rerouted due to a cornice on Douglas Peak, which was about the same time as our receipt of the changed weather forecast. Anyhow, we moved across the divide, towards Seneca Lake and Titcomb, and exited at Elkhart Park TH. Turned out to be a real deal storm. The original plan had us exiting at Whiskey Basin.
We didn’t know any better and managed with beefy tele boots and cable bindings. Aside from sleeping with leather boots to keep them from freezing we didn’t suffer too much. We dragged sleds from Elkhart Park to near Elephant Heads head where we set up a cache. Travelled through Indian Basin to Elsie Col (awesome camping with skiing right out the tent!) to Dinwoody glacier where we got hammered by a storm and then enjoyed lovely N facing powder, but got shut down on climbing Gannet. Back out through Titcomb basin and a long slog out racing another storm. I’d love to see pictures of the terrain you travelled through!
Nice post, full-on in the WildSnow tradition! And K, collapsible P bottle, that sounds epically desperate. Though even that can be one upped. Drinking all of one’s water bottle then converting to a P bottle, then converting back to a water bottle, in the name of simplicity and weight savings, works. Lou
Lou, in a fit of light weight alpinist frenzy after reading some article by Mark Twight, I was inspired to try the water bottle to P bottle back to water bottle method. My memory is that the odor became a problem and by the third day I was thinking ” I may have taken this too far” .
I don’t know how many nights you were out but did your sleeping bags get wet from insensible perspiration?
For me, in the 0-degree bag, no, the the bag did not get wet from insensible perspiration. The only moisture, and not much at that, impacting the bag was due to bumping up against a wet tent. We air dried the bags several times to dry the face fabric. I think this was also the case for the two others. We were out five nights total.
Great article and discussion. Nobody is using closed-cell pads?