At Aspen Highlands, skiers can skin up a designated route to mid-mountain any time of day. If you want to go higher, you have to be at the top by 9 a.m. Oh, and it’s free.
Answers to common questions on the right to ski uphill
In late November, our local ski hill announced plans to start charging for uphill access. The fees are nominal — $10 for a day pass, $50 for a season pass, free for regular season pass holders — but the news incited a small outcry among some locals. The outcry, primarily on social media, included claims along the following lines: the resort can’t charge people for using public land; resort uphill skiers don’t use lifts and shouldn’t have to pay; the area is putting big profits over people; for tax payers, access to federal land is a right.
Ok, I admit. When I first read the news about the charge, I cringed. I’ve been skinning up Sunlight for over a decade. It might actually be the first place I ever walked uphill, back in the days of Black Diamond Joules and G3 Targas. And the ski area had, for a very long time, operated with a pretty lenient policy. Day or night, during operations or after, uphillers could ascend the area’s main blue run (despite blind rollers and steep spots) and then regroup in the open-24-hours warming hut on top.
It’s no secret that resort uphilling is having a moment. Just read the NYTimes from a few weeks ago, and the Washington Post weeks before that. Check your local ski hill’s website and you’ll likely find an uphill policy that didn’t exist a few years ago.
Regulations are wide ranging. Jackson Hole Mountain Resort completely banned it. Arapaho Basin charges for an annual pass. Aspen Mountain allows it only outside of operating hours. A few, including Snowmass, offer suggestions for uphill routes but minimal restrictions otherwise.
Over the past few years, during-operation uphill skiing at Sunlight alone has increased from maybe a dozen each day to ‘dozens and dozens,’ according to Troy Hawks, a spokesperson at the ski area. The increase in traffic and subsequent safety concerns for both uphill and downhill skiers drove the the new fees. The backlash is the unintended side effect.
As the practice of resort uphill skiing grows, it seems there are definitively grey areas surrounding whether resorts should (or can) charge, what uphillers are paying for, and generally, what rights taxpayers have if they’re accessing public lands operating under permits issued by the USFS. It’s high time for some clarity.
“You don’t own the forest” and other common claims
To break down the nuances of public land versus ski area operation, I called up our local White River National Forest Mountain Sports Program Manager and Acting Public Affairs Officer Roger Poirier.
For context, I’ll summarize the basic arrangements: ski areas on USFS land operate under a 40-year special permit for the primary use of downhill skiing. The USFS is the landlord and ski areas are tenants. Ski areas are businesses and they can propose how they want to operate as such on USFS land, so long as their proposed actions are in the interest of 1) the land being used sustainably and 2) the safety of guests. Which brings us to our first claim.
Claim #1: The resort can’t charge people for using public land.
Partly true. “Sunlight or any other resort are not allowed to charge the public an entrance fee to use the National Forest land,” says Roger Poirier, but, “they are allowed to charge a fee for the facilities that they offer. So if they’re providing groomed slopes and trails, snowmaking etc, they’re sinking their own money into that, they’re managing that experience and so they are allowed to charge.” Which brings us to our second claim.
Claim #2: Uphill skiers shouldn’t have to pay because they don’t use lifts.
While it’s true that uphill skiers don’t use lifts (unless you’re using your public access to poach, for shame), we often use a lot of other services when skinning up the local hill. For instance, if you park your car in the ski area parking lot, you’re using a service that the area maintains. If you skin up a groomed run, someone from the ski area got paid to lay that sweet corduroy. You generally don’t need to worry about avalanches while skinning up a ski area (one of my personal reasons to skin alone there) because ski areas would get sued if they didn’t control them. And how many times have you drank too much coffee en route to your morning uphill and had to run to the bathroom the moment you put the car in park?
I’ll state the obvious: ski areas offer more than chairlifts. Of course there are hypotheticals. Say you don’t park at the area’s lot, you break trail on USFS land that is adjacent to the ski area (as in, outside of operating boundaries), you pee in the woods, etc. But then you would effectively be in the backcountry, and not skinning up a resort.
Claim #3: Ski areas that charge put big profits over people.
For this one I called up two stakeholders in the game: Troy Hawks, the aforementioned spokesperson Sales and Marketing Director at Sunlight Ski Area, and Rich Burkley, Senior Vice President of Strategy and Business Development at Aspen Ski Co. The areas have vastly different approaches to uphill resort skiing (all four Aspen Snowmass mountains allow variations on uphill access for free), but in terms of financials, both parties agree there’s not a whole lot for resorts to gain.
At Sunlight, the $50 uphill season pass will be applied primarily to operations and additional resources needed to ensure uphill skier safety. “The round plastic uphill discs are $20 a piece,” says Hawks. Sunlight had to order more of those, or take donated discs from Aspen Ski Co that aren’t in use anymore. The area also plans to install a larger map with designated uphill routes, as well as put money “into ensuring our slopes are safe no matter what: paid patrol staff, people making snow, people grooming snow. It costs $150 an hour to operate one grooming machine. We operate two shifts, every day for about 100 days.”
When I asked Rich Burkley what the value of uphilling is for Aspen Ski Co, he said, plainly, “ I don’t think there’s any financial gain that we get out of it. In my perspective, it’s the overall mountain culture and certainly a respect for skiing and a love of the sport.”
Claim #4: Uphilling at ski areas on USFS land is a tax-payer’s right.
Depending on your values, or perhaps political affiliation, this is a sticky topic that goes way beyond whether someone should be able to ski uphill for free at a ski area. But, in terms of the rules and overarching goals of public land management, here are some things to consider.
According to Troy Hawks, there is some grey area, particularly at Sunlight. The base area (including the lodge and parking lot) are private property, the majority of ski runs and operations are within the ski area’s operating area and then there is adjacent USFS land that is within the special use permit. Ultimately, he says, “We can’t regulate public land, but the part that people are using is in our operating area: parking lot, restrooms, grooming, snowmaking,” therefore, they can enforce rules on how people use it.
Speaking on behalf of the governing agency itself, Roger Poirier offered that resort uphill skiing doesn’t fall into either the ‘right’ or ‘privilege’ category neatly but is by and large a privilege. “Even with other USFS lands we have that are backcountry, like Marble for instance, there are requirements in terms of where you can park and how you use the land. You can’t just take a fatbike anywhere, right? We have rules of how people can access public lands so that they’re managed sustainably.”
Rich Burkley didn’t consider it an either/or. “It’s 100% a privilege. If [ski areas] have a special use permit, they can control access; that’s why some ski areas don’t allow it. I would argue that there’s a lot of federal land that you don’t have access to: prisons and the White House, Department of Defense, the Presidio those kinds of things.” Saying you have a right to public land “doesn’t really carry weight” when it comes to skinning up a resort.
In summary
No, ski areas don’t own the National Forest, but they do own special use permits that allow them to restrict access as deemed necessary. The majority of us do use some kind of facility when uphilling at a ski area, including parking lots, bathrooms, groomers, etc. that ski areas provide and maintain. While I didn’t poke around at resorts that charge higher prices for uphill passes (Eldora, for instance charges $145/season), the folks I did talk to assured me that uphill fees go to operations, not to fat wallets. And lastly, like with all public lands, the tax-paying public does have some rights, but the permit-holding ski area has the jurisdiction to regulate how uphill and downhill skiers use land within an operating boundary.
Commenters, what’s happening in your neck of the hills? Do your local ski areas charge? What’s the general public’s take on it?
88 comments
Fantastic article. This answers several questions I’ve had for many years. Thank you.
Thanks Pat! Glad you found it helpful.
Well written with some great info . I think a lot of us had that same initial cringe reaction when areas starting saying they needed/wanted to charge, but when you break it down like that it makes perfect sense. Also, so many uphillers are willing to spend $1k-2k a year on new gear but willing to complain about $50 to uphill for a season (far far cheaper than any gym membership out there).
Exactly!
Ski areas should charge market value for uphill, or downhill, foot (ski) travel withing the Permit Area. If one does not like that, simply go outside the Permit Area and fight the brush and limbs, take on the hazard oneself! There is, for example, a cost of liability when any person enters a Permit Area. There is summer trail grooming that is significant cost, as well as the facilities mentioned in the article. Another example is rescue within a Permit Area- the contractual obligation of the Permit. This means the operator stands the cost of uphillers’ rescue. When I pay the cost of a lift ticket, I would find it OUTRAGEOUS to have an uphill skier in my path, endangering me and my loved ones who are skiing fast downhill n a downhill ski area!
Hi Robert,
Honestly has an uphiller really ever been in your way? That seems like your biggest concern and I find that a little ridiculous. Additionally have you ever gone uphill at a resort? It’s nice for many reasons but one is that its a nice exercise without added risks in the backcountry. I have no problem with paying for an uphill ticket but charging same as people using the lift is ignorant to say the least. If you are endagered by uphillers because you are going fast then maybe you need to learn to look ahead a bit more while skiing. This is a basic skill in skiing so work on that one. Otherwise I suggest giving uphill a go and see how you like it. Good luck out there.
Absolutely free range uphill traffic is becoming a huge issue for nighttime staff at certain resorts, but I will admit it really only seems to be an issue for certain people. We have a pair of people at my resort who think they own the first run that we groom of the night. I once slid 10 feet with them standing less than 5 feet uphill away from me at the top of the slide. They also walked right under a winch cable on a run that was properly marked as closed. Winch cat operators have come up to the top of their pass to see ski tracks on top of their winch cable. I’ve seen skin tracks go right over charged snowmaking hoses, which are often pushing 300+ psi and can be easily cut with the edge of a ski. As an athlete I fully support uphill skiing but as an operator I think that there are certain people that are going to ruin the whole program for everyone else because they don’t fully understand the dangers that they are putting themselves and others into. IMO resorts should have designated routes that give a good variety of access for free, but anyone that breaks that should be banned. I’ve had enough close calls with disrespectful skinners to think that anyone who thinks they deserve to just go wherever they want whenever they want should not be allowed on the hill. This coming from someone who could have easily killed someone if they had been just a few feet to the left.
It’s nice to know at the Resort the ski patrol is around in case something happens however most likely that would be another skier down hilling into you.
Nice to know that your cell phone works and you’re not in avalanche territory. That’s not the ski area paying for that.
Nice to have the social part of a higher concentration of like minded people.
Kind of hard to enforce because we don’t go through the scanners like lift riders do.
Does Europe charge a fee for Alpine Touring? I searched and had a hard time figuring that out.
Parking is the biggest reason I choose Tiehack to skin up. Much easier.
The last comment is if we pay a fee then the Ski Area should provide a safe route up the mountain or even upholding only routes. SKIMO practice. Thanks for the article I think I’ll go gear up and head over to Tiehack.
Certainly most of the lift areas around the Chamonix valley have uphill access, ranging from fully unregulated to designated routes. In particular, a designated rando route from the base of Le Tour sticks out… seems to be a much more accepted practice around there, unsurprisingly.
Uphill is permitted pretty much everywhere in the French Alps, and where it’s prohibited, people do it anyway. That said, the French (and Swiss) are pretty good about finding compromises that keep everyone happy. In Chamonix, for example, there’s a designated uphill route on the Grands Montets, which is through the forest and off limits to downhill traffic. That keeps uphillers off the highly trafficked and steep descent from the mid-station to the base. Once past the mid-station, there are multiple routes that go further up (and out into the glaciers). Note that the resorts in the Mont Blanc area are pretty strict about night skinning, due to the dangers from grooming machines. The ones who really have the night skinning thing dialed are the Germans – designated restaurants/bars on the mountain are kept open until 10PM so uphill night skinners can have dinner and a beer!
Hi Glenn,
I’m from Spain and I can speak about here and a bit of French Pyrenees.
Here is starting to put regulations, for the moment in some places such as Sierra Nevada there is certain rules and recommendations about how to uphill, and so far is free.
I’ve heard of other ski resorts where they are forbidden, and in the Pyreneees a bit of everything: regulstions, little fee to use specific circuitss or shared runs, Val d’Aran is being one of the most innovative. And the situation is kind of the same as there. Ski resorts are in general within public land but led by private organizations.
I’ll look for some link in English talking about this topic to share it.
Great blog BTW.
Just a clarification, Arapahoe Basin does not charge a daily fee. it is $30 for an uphill season pass for non lift served pass holders and free for pass holders. One does need to pick up an uphill pass from the pass office before ascending though. Otherwise I get the argument that its public land, but as soon as the ski resort runs a groomer on the snow and plows the parking lot I think you owe them the nominal fees they have decided to charge.
Thanks for that clarification Rudolph! It’s been updated.
After 30 plus years of solo early morning skinning up low angle BC, I love the $30 Abasin charges annually for uphill access. It is cheap for guys like me who want an early morning individual workout before taking a seat at my desk. I don’t need my beacon, probe poles or shovel since I’m not skinning in the BC alone where the equipment would be useless anyway without a partner.
Thanks for a great article!
Yep, if you are bushwacking uphill and down, and down use the restrooms, then maybe there is something to be said for the ‘public land’ argument, but otherwise it doesn’t hold water. And if you are doing that, why are you within a resort area anyway, and would they really require you to buy a pass?
I think the much stranger legal question is people leaving the resort, to enter public land, and the fact that resorts seem to be able to legally enforce that!
Charging is NOT standard practise in Europe – but it probably should become so, IMO. Austrian ski resorts can ban the practise, and some already have. Bavarian resorts cannot prevent access due to the Bavarian constitution. This was challenged in court some years ago and, long story short, the lift operators must allow access. (But no one said they must offer parking for free – which is a tack some places are taking.)
In any case – what I see every weekend at my home resort is a junk show. Several hundred people uphilling the resort – each respectful and mindful of the skiers in their own way (mostly) but as a group a real and constant danger.
I love touring – but this is something else, and its dangerous for everyone involved. We’ve made our resorts safe by removing most obstacles from the piste, and covering any remaining ones in flexible fencing and padding where needed – not that, in the event of a fall, I would ever hit one of these now. I would, on pretty much any day on the “standard” uphill route, careen through 5-10 uphill skiers. Someone, very soon, is going to get killed this way – no joke. If I went hiking up a downhill bike park, I’d rightly be cussed by everyone coming down….for some reason a lot of tourers don’t see their actions in the same light – but the speeds involved are entirely similar, and so are the consequences.
They need and deserve a dedicated uphill route. And this means they will need to pay for that….it doesn’t need to be much, but it cannot be optional either. We all paid for the Autobahn too – but it doesn’t mean you can drive on it the wrong way, or go rollerskating on it. Some resorts are doing this….and I am all for it.
I don’t entirely agree that skiing uphill is the same as hiking uphill at a downhill mtb park. A bike trail is only 1-5 feet wide, with many corners that limit visibility. Ski runs are MUCH wider
I think uphilling at a resort is lame once the season is under way and the resort is open, because in instances described here with crowds it is a danger. Hiking and skiing the resort before it opens as in the early season to get in some powder skiing is fine. My season pass resort on forest land encroaches the cascade crest trail and cannot restrict access, which is really great. Also their is no major urban population hub nearby and so the few uphill hikers one sees during the season are minimal. Lucky me.
I mostly ski in France and have seen the popularity grow. I’ve not experienced anything as bad as described by Wookie above. It’s always been accepted as far as I can tell. Some resorts are promoting it and setting up dedicated uphill routes, presumably as a form of segregation, and management, Some resorts it’s just the side of a (named) piste. The French sports retailer Decathlon has a useful database:
https://skitouring.decathlon.fr/liste-itineraires/?search_region=Alpes+du+Nord&search_station=143&search_difficulte=0
No one charges.
I’ve not visited but in Switzerland they have several “Rando parcs” with several routes, graded for difficulty.
Also worth pointing out “ARVA” parcs, an avalanche beacon practice area with several pre-buried transmitters for you to find, are becoming more popular.
Park City has a dedicated, free uphill route for use outside of operating hours. It uses runs that will be groomed no matter what, so there isn’t the concern of resource allocation. Frankly, it’s awesome to have a place to get fitness laps when there’s high avy danger or my schedule doesn’t permit a full tour. The uphill culture in Aspen is super cool, and I hope my community and it’s corporate pillars continue to support the movement like Aspen has. I’d pay for additional dedicated and/or daytime uphill access, for what it’s worth (despite not using the parking lot or the baños while reaper skinning).
Autocorrected “resort skinning” to reaper…naturally.
Maverick, I thought that was some sweet resort skinning lingo I’ve been missing out on…I like it
Interesting ideas, in some cases, so to speak. IMO uphilling at a ski resort is in demand, and if I were working again in the ski area business would advocate to organize uphilling, safely, within the Permit, for a $Fee.
On US Forest Permit Areas- ski areas or resorts- is a Contract to provide services safely also the Permit holder controls the area- within local and Federal Law. So, I would say, be a good citizen, do not endanger others and respect the Permit holder- Ski Area,. And please acknowledge that there are ‘rules’ – in the force of Law and Regulations on all public lands. Rarely is it known of serious prosecution of lawbreaking individuals on public lands. But it has occurred, up to the point of stiff fines, perhaps to the extreme of being ordered by a Judge to NOT ENTER public lands within certain distance for….5 years! Not making this up. Just be a good citizen, do not endanger others that are paying customers engaging in downhill skiing. One can easily uphill in a way that is not noticed.
A few points:
1.Good to remember that many backcountry ski huts are on public land, and operated with a Special Use Permit that’s exactly the same thing as the Permit ski resorts operate under. Just like the ski resorts, the huts have the right to dictate what people do within their permit area. For example, 10th Mountain Huts restricts snowmobile use within their permit areas around their huts.
2. With enough people doing it, making money from uphillers is entirely feasible. It’s done all over the Alps, usually by catering to their appetites. I’m sure Rich B. and other’s in the industry know this, and for some reason don’t envision the activity ever getting that popular here. But my vision says different.
3. At our local uphilling hunts here in central Colorado, there are numerous places they could build designated uphill routes through beautiful forests and such. Why they don’t do that has mystified me for years. It seems so weird walking up a danged resort ski run, with human artillery aimed directly at your fragile cuerpo, next to a perfectly good aspen forest where a trail could be built in three hours by six guys with chainsaws.
4. I’m pretty sure the “right of passage” laws in Europe preclude them ever charging for uphilling, but perhaps not, as the uphillers are indeed using a product, groomed and sometimes manmade snow. In fact, I was at a meeting in the EU once where a guy put a value on how much it cost his resort to make-maintain every cubic meter of snow. I forgot the number, but it was not trivial.
Lou
I totally agree about the trail choice in the forest outside the groomed area. We have that at our local hill here in BC. It’s used in wintertime and summertime making it totally possible to access the Backcountry areas without even stepping on to the groomed.
The amenities of a ski hill – parking lots, bathrooms, warming hut at the top, is what makes uphilling at the resort worth paying a fee for. What bums me out the most about this change in policy is being restricted to only two routes up the mountain. I get that it is part of regulation & all, but one of the great pleasures of skinning up hill is putting together different routes from point A to Point B. I’d rather pay more for a more comprehensive vetting/education process in order to have more freedom in choosing my own route to the top.
How much would a resort have to charge for an uphill pass to make it profitable for them? If uphill ski touring is the fastest growing segment of the ski industry, it seems it would behoove ski resorts to find way to meet this market.
Many resorts CAN make money off of uphill access, but not how you think (as the article mentioned, the fees some resorts charge barely cover the cost of administering the program). It ties in with another issue many resorts are facing: full parking lots. Some have addressed this by charging for parking, or otherwise incentivizing skiers to carpool. Every car that can’t get into the parking lot is lost revenue; each ski area has its own figure for the average revenue per car, but a whole family with tickets/rentals/lessons can be over $1000.
We found that 73% of our resort’s uphillers also have a season pass to ride the chairlift. And most of them will do one or the other on a particular day, not both. So, on those days when parking lots reach capacity, every passholder that skins up outside operating hours (instead of riding the chair) means a parking spot that can be occupied by someone likely to spend $$$.
Annual economic benefit varies from year to year and resort to resort, because of variations in factors such as number of capacity days, proximity to population, carpooling ethic, number of uphillers, % of uphillers that skin then ride the chair, average revenue per car, etc. The study we did for our ski area showed a minimum of $40,000 in added revenue annually by having an Uphill Access program, with an upper-end estimate of $400,000. For some resorts, these numbers could be much higher. The point is, ski areas can and should view off-hours Uphill Access as a revenue driver; the relatively small cost of administering the program can yield fairly sizable returns. Ski areas should want to facilitate a robust off-hours Uphill Access program not just for the sake of charity or “mountain culture,” but because it can make them real, quantifiable money.
Hey Bobby! Thanks for sharing the findings of your study. A few of us in Telluride are trying to get our resort to expand its uphill allowance. We’re limited to a couple trails that gain roughly 1500 ft over FOUR MILES! Its definitely not a great bang for our buck. There are some trails on the front side of our hill that would provide a GREAT workout, but we haven’t had any luck getting official access to them.
Do you have some concrete stats from your study that you could share with me to help bolster our argument to allow more uphilling? Also, which resort are you a part of? Also, any advice you may have to work with my resort admins/patrol to grow our on-piste uphill community would be greatly welcome!
disc.howarth@gmail.com
I encourage everyone to read the SUP. I believe it is the same for all resorts operating on Forest service land. It specifically addresses restricting public access within the permit boundary. Read it yourself. Don’t take my word for it. It’s very short and specific, and this is the only part I can find that refers to public access.
“F. Area Access. Except for any restrictions as the holder and the authorized officer may agree to be necessary to protect the installation and operation of authorized structures and developments, the lands and waters covered by this permit shall remain open to the public for all lawful purposes. To facilitate public use of this area, all existing roads or roads as may be constructed by the holder, shall remain open to the public, except for roads as may be closed by joint agreement of the holder and the authorized officer.”
I have a question. Has anyone ever been found guilty by a federal court of trespassing for hiking uphill on federal land within a ski area boundary?
By the way, I am not advocating for anything. Only trying to figure out the rules. If that question angers you, you should ask yourself why.
We are blessed to have free unlimited uphill skiing here at Pajarito but I see the reasoning for controlling it. First, I don’t disagree with limiting it during operating hours due to: 1) Liability. Part of your lift ticket price pays for the resort’s liability insurance. Every skier on the mountain (paying or not) contributes a risk to the resort’s financial liability, probably even more so when they are flowing against traffic. 2) I know uber athletes who have been known to do 12-15 laps at the resort on a powder day for free. It’s a fair argument that this is taking pow runs away from paying customers, lessening their enjoyment, and thus, diminishing the lift ticket value. 3) Smaller local hills aren’t Vail. No one is getting rich there. It’s a constant struggle for them to survive. Getting upset about paying these nominal fees is just plain selfish. If you don’t want to pay, stay in the real backcountry.
In the Pacific Northwest this issue is a bit different. We are required to buy Sno-Park permits to park from the DOT. The Sno-Parks are at Nordic areas, backcountry trailheads, snowmobile areas, and downhill ski areas. It is my understanding that the DOT maintains the parking lot, not the ski area. However, the ski areas here generally do not allow uphill skiing, or it is severely restricted based on operating hours. Many areas the parking lot is the access point for the downhill ski area and popular backcountry skiing areas. Additionally problematic is access to many backcountry ski areas are blocked by the downhill ski area that we are not allowed to pass through. Given the Sno-Parks dictate where we can recreate I believe the ski areas should do more to work with uphill travelers or the DOT should provide more Sno-Parks.
Not sure where you live in the PNW, however sno-park permits are not required to park at a down-hill ski area in Washington state. Also, as far as I know, DOT does not maintain the area parking lots, only adjacent state and county HWY’s.
What about exposure to avalanche control efforts by the Ski Area? That seems to be the biggest concern here at Bridger Bowl. Management and patrollers are worried that an uphiller will walk into a runout zone will they are doing AC work. Seems valid from their perspective of being responsible for the folks that are within their permit boundaries. As a skier, it’s easy enough to judge where these paths are, but human behavior usually includes a group that follows the path of least resistance to getting what they desire…regardless of what’s happening above. Seems to be happening on Teton Pass and in the Wasatch and giving those respective Transportation Departments real human safety problems. Do fines work to limit these issues?
Skinning up any resort is such a convenient and safe way to get in your vertical that I need to quit griping about fees.
(But Eldora’s $150 for only M-F access is steep) Again, convenience to Boulder’s skimo crowd comes at a price.
$150 IS kind of steep for a resort that only charges $560 for a full pass.
Actually a full M-F pass is only $450
Yea, $150 is kinda steep.
There are also blackout dates and it doesn’t begin until Jan. 7…
Can’t start skinning until 9am unless you purchase the $150 season pass, then you are granted a 6am start on 3 days a week.
Does cross some private property and public lands. A small portion of the dedicated skin track was cut through forest and so avoids downhill traffic(Lou’s comment), but vast majority of the uphill trail is on alpine runs. All in all, Eldora is pretty restrictive compared to other resorts and was closed to uphillers for decades.
$150 bucks…. How many rounds of golf would that be. I am sorry that is not much money anymore.
Great article. Here in NM, Taos Ski Valley prohibits uphill traffic at any time during the resort season, while Ski Santa Fe is pretty much wide open to uphill users. I for one completely understand when areas elect to charge a nominal fee for an uphill pass. Don’t bitch about having to pay….be thankful that you enjoyed it for free for this long.
I’m curious why they would say no fatbikes on the mountain at anytime. Some of us have been riding up Sunlight for 10 years now and have had zero problems, so why the blanket ban now with zero explanation?
Why do I have to pay for the ‘infrastructure and safety services’ they provide when they decided to put the mountain where I want to skin? It is public land my taxes pay for. This has capitalistic greed written all over it. $50 this year, $80 next, soon it will be up there with the downhill pass. You won’t see me there anymore, catch you in the REAL back country.
Yeah I guess you forgot that the mountain is a shared resource and the government decided that a ski area can operate there. You can vote and someday the rules can change but I find that unlikely. I agree though that the precedent to charge more and more can happen and soon they can cost as much as regular lift tickets. Another commenter wanted them to charge full price which is ridiculous.
I think the more skiers you got be they paying customers or not, the more skiers ya got and the chance to sell them something. Locally there have been issues and changes in policy either way but there is not a lot of people up here and uphill traffic rules have never stuck for very long, a designated up hill route is a good idea,
It’s fine to charge a nominal fee IF services are provided in return, such as parking, restrooms, ski patrol, grooming, etc. I have a hard time understanding why I should pay on top of my taxes to access public lands if none of those services are provided (Skinned up at a small ski area Sunday, when they were closed, parking lot gated, no restrooms, ski patrol or even grooming to speak of was provided, so pay for WHAT?). I ski mostly in the backcountry because the skyrocketing lift ticket prices have priced me out of the resorts. At some resorts, the uphill fee approaches what a lift ticket used to be 20 years ago, which isn’t reasonable for the minimal services uphill skiers use.
responding to Lou’s comment re: dedicated uphill skin track;
Mont St Anne Quebec has a route that goes to the summit that winds through the woods away from the piste. An uphill pass is 8.00 and the trail is beautiful. If only US areas had this vision then skiers would be much safer
It’s fairly complicated here in France. Although some smaller resorts have a blanket ban this is generally not enforced. Most now have dedicated routes on the side of pistes or better, dedicated tracks. I have not heard of anyone that charges yet. The complication comes in that each village does its own thing. Where I live we have 12 villages connected into one ski area. One village will ban uphill on the piste during the day but allow it on certain pistes in the evening, whereas a village literally 5 min down the road will do the opposite! Each place has its own history though. My local area had a very serious accident between a groomer, it’s cable and two ski tourers one night. Very unpleasant for all involved. Another local area had a fatal accident between a skier and a groomer before the resort had opened for the season. This is a huge issue, the ski areas are very busy places during the weeks before the season, groomers, snowmobiles and slope stabilization will be going on throughout the day. They have a job to do, a small window to do it and there can be literally hundreds of tourers out taking advantage of the conditions.
Here in Switzerland I’ve not paid to walk uphill, but would be happy to do so as the grooming, rescue etc cost money to organize. But some basic guidance like the FIS code for downhill (signs) and common sense are needed to minimise thoughtless or inexperienced people being stupid and creating dangers to others.
This Saturday at Engelberg I saw around 10 sensible people walking uphill on the side of red and blue pistes. Plus one idiot walking up in the middle of the Kannonenrohr (gun barrel) piste, the single place in the whole resort where beginners are funneled onto 100m of narrow, steep, icy, lumpy piste in the middle of the last blue run of the day, ready to crash. A bad accident waiting to happen, even without the moving human crash barrier. And doubly stupid as there is a nice zig-zag which only requires a traverse of that piste.
I have a season ski pass, to use the lifts at our local ski area, Jay Peak. While we had some great snow for early skinning up in November, before lift operations began, lately with lifts running, I have noticed a blanket ban on “uphill travel” posted daily on the ski area web site. Normally, during the ski season, free uphill travel is allowed, during lift operations, and other times, after filling out a release form. There is a designated uphill travel route, along the side of a run, marked on the ski area maps.
Not sure if that is an ominous trend; a daily blanket ban on uphill travel. I just hope that the skinning up we have enjoyed for years, even during operating hours will not be restricted.
Seriously, does anyone know of anyone ever that has been found guilty by a federal court of trespassing for hiking uphill on federal land within a ski area boundary?
https://www.wildsnow.com/5756/uphill-skiing-arrest/
All bogus charges. All dropped. No court appearance. No finding. Sounds more like bullying than law enforcement.
Again, does anyone know of anyone ever that has been found guilty by a federal court of trespassing for hiking uphill on federal land within a ski area boundary?
Thanks.
Hi Ed, I’d respectfully suggest that you are asking the wrong question. If the lands are leased public lands, the issue isn’t trespass; it’s theft of services. I wonder if anyone has been prosecuted for theft of services for skiing at a ski area without a ticket and DID NOT use the lift?
Sure. Better to ask if anyone has ever had any funding of being in the wrong in any court.
In Southern Vermont, Stratton permits uphill access for free, on designated routes, Magic also has free access, and will give a token to a successful uphiller at the top of the lift for a free lift ride same day, and Bromley has a twenty dollar uphill season pass.
Thank you, Mannasseh for taking the time to research this topic. My local ski hill is Mt. Bachelor and we’re fortunate that the management of the mountain has been very cooperative in providing access for uphillers. There is a shorter route (800 vertical) that is open 24/7. You can continue on the route to mid-mountain when those lifts are running (2000 vertical) or, if the summit lift is running, you can continue to the summit (3000 vertical). I’m one of the high percentage of uphillers that also has a full season pass, but it’s nice to have the availability of a resort uphill route on days when the off-piste snow is poor quality and I just want a good workout. It’s also nice to have this as an option when the early season backcountry coverage is so marginal as to be high risk for skiing.
Thanks for that feedback Larry. I was just talking to a friend the other day who mentioned how uphilling has become really popular at Bachelor. It’s encouraging to hear they’ve got a good system for it.
I can understand a resort banning out of hours skinning (and skiing) if they use winch cats. A cable that whips could be lethal.
Thanks to all for the comments and input. It’s especially helpful to hear input from folks in other countries. Clearly there’s a lot to talk about with this one!
The assumption that things like clearing parking lots is paid for by the ski area is often wrong.
At least in my neck of the woods, it’s the State (WA) and the Province (BC) that covers most of that cost. Which means we’ve already paid.
I would bet this is the case in a lot of places in Colorado. SO unless you have more information to the contrary, you probably ought to put some caveats on your #4 item.
Great post.
I support modest charges from resorts for accessing their property and areas of operation. Frankly, it would be well worth it just to have access to Ski Patrol in case of an accident. A cheap insurance policy.
For your next post, take a look at New England where groups like RASTA are now partnering with the USFS to open dedicated backcountry “resorts” , complete with cut trails and signage. No lifts, no amenities, no Ski Patrol (Tuckerman Ravine has a volunteer patrol), but no fee.
This is a better fit in the East where woods must be maintained to allow skiing, but it’s interesting.
Sounds similar to Blue Bird Backcountry in Colorado: http://bluebirdbackcountry.com/about/
It depends… On private land, ski areas can and should do whatever they want. However, for ski areas in washington on special use permits – the ski areas are not renting the land – there are a few important notes:
*Special use permits are not exclusive – the forest service can authorize other uses for the same land area with limitations
*They all have the same language (baker, snoqualmie, crystal, etc..):
“Except for any restrictions as the holder and the authorized officer may agree to be necessary to protect the installation and operation of authorized structures and developments, the lands and waters covered by this permit shall remain open to the public for all lawful purposes.”
*They do not say what the ski area can and can not charge for that I can find – this seems to be a handshake agreement with the Forrest service, which is very strange
In my FOIA request for the permits, I asked for all relevant documents including side agreements between the authorized officer and the ski area -there were none.
My Reading:
A ski area can not stop you from skinning uphill unless it is illegal (in washing ton, this means a run is closed -totally closed, for uphill and downhill use, which I take to mean after hours too). I’ve contacted the local for forest service office, and they effectively said ‘be cool, don’t piss off the ski area’, which is a total cop out. The forest service is failing us, and is granting ski areas rights that were not originally negotiated in the special use permit in allowing ski areas to have restrictive uphill policies (that prefer paying customers) and allow them to stop uphill travel all together. I’m not sure why I should be held to account because ski areas are shitty negotiators and didn’t get language that clearly states ‘we have the exclusive right to charge folks to use our trails otherwise those folks are tresspassing’ – this is especially pertinent when using a groomed nordic area to access the back country – if they had this language, they would be paying the forest service more money. Forest service officers are giving things away for free to ski areas….
Be active – file a FOIA request for your local ski hill’s special use permit. Complain to your local forest service office.
Great post, and great comments. I dropped the link on a local FB group page that was just having a discussion of this very topic.
Question – our local ski resort frequently uses their insurance company’s demands as justification for a lot of their actions. If indeed all the Special Use Permits use basically the same language that doesn’t appear to allow a ban on uphill travel, could the resort justifiably defer to its insurance provider’s whims regarding uphill access?
Good question Steve. I didn’t ask this question specifically, but both Troy Hawks and Rich Burkley hinted that it would likely only take one bad collision for insurance companies to put an end to resort uphilling. I don’t know exactly what that looks like in terms of legal arrangements and paperwork, but it does seem to be a viable concern.
It seems odd that a long history of people colliding with one another on ski slopes hasn’t been significant enough for insurance companies to shut down ski areas, but the prospect of a collision with an uphiller is considered an untenable danger.
Interestingly enough 1) shutting down an Entire ski area and 2) shutting a secondary and financial insignificant use of a ski area are not actually the same thing!
We are a bit behind the times in CA, but uphilling at resorts is slowly starting to become more of a thing and there is a constantly changing landscape of access and costs at the various resorts.
Here is my understanding of resorts allowing some kind of access:
Sugar Bowl – $159 season uphill pass, $30 day pass, free for season pass holder. Designated routes. Allowed 6am-7pm.
Mammoth Mountain – $149 season uphill pass, $29 for day pass, free for season pass holder. Only access is during operating hours on designated routes. Just started allowing access last year.
Diamond Peak – free access outside of operating hours. Designated routes. Website currently says access doesn’t start until January.
Kirkwood – free access outside of operating hours. Must call uphill hotline before going up to be aware of access. No designated routes, just don’t be an idiot around winch cat ops or avy control.
Heavenly – free access – 6pm – 8am. Must call uphill hotline for info before going up to be aware of access issues. No designated routes, just don’t be an idiot around winch cat ops or avy control. When access is allowed, the hotline usually limits access to Stagecoach/Olympic area or Roundabout. Hotline still says its closed for access as of 12/17/19, but I’ve seen plenty of people out and friendly patrollers and groomers waving on the NV side.
It will be interesting to see how Kirkwood/Heavenly update their policies as more and more people get out there.
Zero access allowed at Squaw, Alpine, Northstar. Not sure about other resorts outside of those I’ve listed.
I live in the Mad River Valley in Vermont by Sugarbush and Mad River Glen. I have been hiking and skinning for nearly 30 years and often do so at the ski areas early season as the trails are safer to ski and I can get some skinning fitness going. We recently had a backcountry summit with reps from Sugarbush, Mad River Glen, the US Forrest Service and the Vermont Dept. of Forrests & Parks. It was a very interesting discussion.
Sugarbush has banned all early season skinning despite the fact that one of the mountains (Mt. Ellen) does not open until late December. They do allow some lift served hiking to get to some trails at Castlerock when they do not want to open the lift. The reason for the ban on skinning at Mt. Ellen early season is that they are conducting mountain operations. At some point they allow skinning either after the lifts close or before they open on designated routes only. They plan their grooming around the skinning routes and schedule (or perhaps it is the other way around). To skin prior to opening you need to get up very early as they want you to stop skinning by 7am with lifts opening by 8. You do also need to get an uphill pass but so far it is free.
The bigger news was that Mad River Glen which has always welcomed skinning is putting the brakes on it once the mountain is open for the season. They will still allow skinning when they are closed but have now decided that they will ban early morning skinning on powder days. The basis for this decision is the large number of early morning skinners who arrive for a dawn patrol run or two. The concern is that their paying lifting riding customers who arrive early and patiently wait in line to ride the lift to get first tracks are frequently disappointed as they ride up to see that the pristine powder they hoped to ski has been skied by all those skinners. MRG said they will announce the days when they will ban early morning skinning. There were questions about allowing it for those who have a season’s pass but that has not yet been decided. I do understand their desire to keep the paying lift riding customer happy but this will make a number of skinning season pass holders angry. The policy is evolving so it may change as the season progresses.
While slightly off topic the public land managers were very happy to tout the fact that they are working with BC skier groups to develop more gladed skiing on public land. Skiers are also working with large private land managers to create glades on their land. The state is also keeping BC skiers in mind when they plan logging on state land and in some instances will log in strips that will create open areas specifically for BC skiing.
As long as the resort can be sued by an uphiller, or a downhiller impacted by an uphiller can sue the resort in their SUP terrain, most any intelligent ski resort is going to try to manage it with fees, bans, etc. It doesn’t take too many lawsuits to ruin it for everyone. The problem is that Americans generally don’t/won’t take responsibility for their decisions when there’s money to be made.
that is the ski resort’s problem – they can’t modify the special use permit to prohibit uphill traffic, they either have to go un-insured or pay more for insurance… It is not the public or the forest service’s responsibility to keep ski resorts insurable.
I spoke with a Colorado ski resort expert attorney the other day. Our “Skiers Safety Act” protects the ski resort from much liability, whether you have a ticket or not, whether you are going uphill, downhill, or standing in a lift line for that matter. Similar laws exist in other states, and so on. In previous conversations, I’ve also come to understand that well managed uphill skiing does not require any more insurance coverage of any sort (as it can’t be construed as “negligent”). The whining from resorts about this is just a straw man that the resorts or others come up with out of ignorance, or because they don’t want to tackle the real issue, which is that an entire new type of customer base has appeared, and they don’t know how to monetize it. Well, they’re supposed to be the ones running a business and making money. All I can say to them, is “figure it out — the uphillers are not going away.” Lou
Sugarloaf, Maine has a sensible uphill policy: $10 uphill only pass or a season ticket (or regular lift ticket). 7:00 a.m earliest start, no descents before 8:30 a.m. A designated route plus freedom to uphill on Burnt Mt. and Bracket Basin (both of which are sort of brush-removed sidecountry/tree skiing). Off the mountain when the patrol does their sweep. No up hilling above highest open lift (I assume to ensure an injured skier would be detected by the patrol sweep). They ask that skiers check in with patrol if skinning on snowfields near summit. All this seems aimed at: Safety. It seems like a lot of moving parts, but the result is a safer environment.
My experience is that its pretty easy to underestimate the danger of skinning below a ridge or other block to downhill skier visibility. The reality is that alpine skiers ski fast and expecting them not too is unrealistic.
Frank and Lou, I’ll pay good money to watch you both start skinning up Jackson Hole Mountain Resort. (You won’t be the first to be cuffed and stuffed into a sled gitmo-style, even septuagenarian status won’t help…though with your Colorado ski resort expert attorney maybe you can sue em back to the stone age.)
That Rick,
Do you know of any incident that actually concluded in someone being found guilty of any crime?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wyoming-uphill-skier-arrested-for-going-wrong-way-up-mountain/
if link not allowed, look up Roland Fleck, 2011.
Not guilty of any crime (of course that didn’t stop the ski resort from getting the police to arrest to arrest the old man) but one can quickly find him/herself “cuffed and stuffed”. Stokus Interruptus
Yes, this is the only incident anyone has been able to site, and it resulted in no charges. This is telling…
Apparently all these concerned individuals (us) have never even heard of someone being charged w a crime. This is telling. It appears the courts have read the SUP and understand it. It is not illegal to walk uphill in open areas of ski resorts.
I welcome any improvement. Ski mountains in the USA have been arseholes to ski race families and fans for as long as I can remember and that only logically, extended to uphill sking.
I can not believe there is such hostility about this, it only makes for negative feelings and press.
Very informative, and a bit depressing that this is such a “thing” now. I have no more interest in joining 100’s of people skinning up a resort run than I do jamming into room full of sweaty lycra clad people on mats for an elbow to elbow yoga session. I value solitude too much in these particular endeavors. This has been part of why I love living in SE Idaho…trails are pretty much empty year around, season ski passes are relatively cheap, snow is good when we get enough of it…but even here our local hill, know for its lack of anything that might be considered either a frill or rule, has a new uphill ski policy. That policy (no after hours uphill, no uphill the week prior to opening) is mainly being justified by the new winch cat. Here we go!
I hear they’re checking passes upper mountain at a lot of areas these days. Could this be the demise of the “Po Chi Minh Trail”?
Looks like my All World Upper Mountain Pass may have been revoked. Oh well, that was fun while it lasted.
Friends:
I can not find the safety cables for my three pin cable bindings. We we are going up hill skiing at Monarch this coming Monday. Who sells these cables now days.
They are usually a thin beaded cable with a ring that goes through your shoe laces.
Friends:
* At Monarch Ski Resort in Colorado safety cables are not mandatory on three pin cable bindings. I ordered some from a company called ” EVO ” anyway.
* I am still ” Earning My Turns ” at age 65 with two artificial hips and two knee operations [ Bursectomy ]. I heard some people in their 20s say ” Earn Your Turns ” when they saw me skiing up-hill but they had no idea the phrase came from Lou Dawson.
Some people in their 20s never heard of ” The Three Stooges “…. Yikes!
Thinking Allowed…..
Arthur
Thanks for this well-written overview of the topic. It’s interesting to hear the various perspectives from across the continent.
Our local lift area Red Lodge Mountain provides two routes that can be accessed before and after lift hours as long as you’re headed downhill by 0900. It’s also a touring free-for-all pre and post operating season and leads to some outstanding days, often some of the best conditions of the season. While I’m happy to have these things, I wish they could find a way to allow for an uphill route during operating hours.. When I’ve brought it up to management and other employees at the mountain, I get a variety of responses as to why that will never happen. They range from the “uphillers are a liability to downhill skiers” argument to thinking that Red Lodge would lose what meager profits it already makes to uphillers. Most arguments are easily countered. I also know I’m not the only season passholder that would continue to purchase one and even pay a little more for it to be provided with a 24-7 inbounds uphill route during regular operating season.
Anyone know if there’s a list or compilation of various US ski areas and their uphill travel policies? Thanks- some great info in this article and in the discussion.
Friends:
Monarch ski resort up-hill policy. Free up-hill with seasons pass or $20 for a up-hill seasons pass…… Look here:
MONARCH MOUNTAIN 2019- 20 UPHILL ACCESS POLICY
Uphill access ticket policy and user guidelines:
The Monarch Mountain uphill access policy is intended to educate users about the guidelines and risks of these activities.
Monarch Mountain permits uphill traffic with limited restrictions. However, there are guidelines that all uphill users must follow to promote safety and to minimize conflicts between mountain operations including but not limited to: grooming operations (including winch cat), snowmobile traffic, other vehicles, downhill skiers/riders, and any other activities that might be taking place at any time on the mountain, day and night.
Uphill access is an activity that Monarch Mountain supports in the interest of increasing the enjoyment of the National Forest. Monarch Mountain thanks users in advance for your cooperation in following these guidelines which enhance enjoyment of the mountain experience.
Uphill users are considered skiers under the Colorado Ski Safety Act and are required to adhere to the laws stated in the act and the specific items located within the skier’s responsibility code.
Ticket policy:
The uphill access ticket is available at the guest service desk during normal business operating hours. Current season pass holders may obtain a complimentary uphill ticket, but there is a small administrative fee ($20) for the uphill ticket for non- season pass holders. The uphill ticket is valid for the 2019- 20 winter season. Users wanting to travel uphill exclusively after the ski area closes for the 2019-20 winter season may obtain an uphill ticket at no charge after the official Monarch Mountain closing day (TBD). Users will be required to sign the general liability waiver that includes uphill travel. Users will be given a hard copy and/or emailed a copy of this uphill Travel Policy.
Uphill tickets should be worn at all times (during and after operating hours) when accessing the ski area with the following acceptable uphill type equipment: a/t gear, nordic, split-board, snowshoe, and (fat tire mountain bikes- outside of operating hours ONLY). Foot traffic is discouraged. Sledding devices are prohibited at all times. If tickets are not visible, users may be asked to stop and show their uphill ticket to Monarch Mountain staff.
Uphill guidelines:
1. Be observant when ascending. The ski area conducts operations on the mountain 24 hours a day – before, during, and after the ski season. Users may encounter snowcats, winch cats, winch cables, snowmobiles, trucks, skiers/riders and other types of operations at any time.
2. Respect all closures, warning signs and ropes at all times.
3. Designated uphill routes – during operating hours (09:00am-04:00pm)
a. Barrel loop- (center of lower tango-climbers right of north forty-to the top of Gunbarrel)
b. Pano route- (center of lower tango- climbers right of north forty- climbers left of roundabout- climbers left of Skywalker)
c. Mirk route- (climbers left of Little Mo-to the top of Mirkwood*) *When open
4. Designated uphill routes are marked by a yellow diamond shaped marker with a black arrow.
5. Terrain parks are closed outside of operating hours. Other trails may be used during this time.
6. Fat tire mountain bikes are allowed outside of operating hours – not during operating hours.
7. Be aware of others on the mountain and remain visible from above at all times.
8. Always keep your uphill access ticket visible and be willing to stop and produce it whenever
asked by any resort personnel. This includes early season, late season, and after hours.
9. At dusk, night, or early morning, wear reflective clothing visible from all directions, such as a
vest, armband, belt, reflective clothing or pack, headlamp, flashing bike light, etc.
Dogs:
Dogs are prohibited on the mountain during operating hours and are strongly discouraged at all other times. The resort is not responsible for injury to dogs, service animals, or other pets. User may be held responsible for any resulting damages or injuries to persons or property due to their animal, as well as loss of access/ticket privileges. If you do bring your dog on the mountain outside of operating hours, please clean up after your animal and maintain control of them at all times with a leash or verbal command.
Closures and mountain operations:
1. Uphill users must obey all signs, warnings, and closures. Winch cat operations are identified by an orange sign near the anchor point and a blue flashing warning light on the winch-cat. Other snowcats use an orange light. Do not under any circumstances ski/ride near any snowcats or grooming operations. Just because you can easily see a snowcat, doesn’t mean that the operator can see you.
2. Terrain parks are closed outside of normal operating hours.
3. Mirkwood and other avalanche terrain may be closed. Avalanche mitigation may be in
progressatanytimeduringtheearlymorning,daytime,ordusk. Itisyourresponsibilityto avoid areas where these activities may be in progress. Please check in with ski patrol dispatch if in question. If in doubt, avoid traveling in or under any steep terrain.
4. It is unlawful to board any of the lifts without a valid lift ticket or season pass. Anyone utilizing uphill access privileges to access upper mountain lifts without a valid lift ticket or pass will be subject to the loss of all pass privileges at the resort for an extended period and may be prosecuted for theft under Colorado law.
5. If user decides to leave the ski area boundary, user is responsible for understanding risks. User may not enter, leave or re- enter the ski area by using a closed area, including marked USFS boundary closures. User must exit the area through USFS designated access points.
6. Ski patrol services are not available outside of operating hours. Call 911 in case of emergency. Cell service may be spotty or unavailable and rescue may be lengthy. Travel with a partner and let others know of your plan.
7. Monarch Mountain reserves the right to prohibit uphill access at any time due to special events, mountain operations, weather, or for any other reason deemed necessary by Monarch Mountain administration.
Parking:
1. During the ski season, uphill users outside of operating hours are encouraged to park in the area next to the Water Treatment Plant to be clear of parking lot plowing operations (located in the lower lot across from the bottom of the Gunbarrel ski trail)
2. Outside of the ski season, uphill users should be aware that parking lot gates are unlocked only during operating hours; these hours are posted on the entrance gate (don’t get locked inside!)
Nick: Backcountry Magazine put together a comprehensive list. Looks like they last updated it in 2018 https://backcountrymagazine.com/uphill-travel-guide-resort-skinning-policies/
Thank you!
As the special use permit states safety of guests is a priority. Resorts are not correcting ski area congestion, and allowing to many on the mountain without enforcement of kid and slow skier zones. I’m all for allowing use of uphill travel to get people off the inbounds lift access to reduce ski area congestion. Either the US Forest Service needs to allow ski area expansion of reduce people on the mountain this can be done by limiting ticket sales, or giving up parking spots to uphill skiers who desire an experience not so crowded.
With Vail increasing ticket day rates at Stevens and Whistler we are seeing a massive increase in users at smaller areas like Mt Baker who offermuch lower day ticket rates.
Curious to where bc gates come into play. My resort Sugarbowl claims to have an “open boundary but more often then not the backcountry gates have a closed sign. Can they keep you from using public lands that are outside their permitted area?