Shim sha Shim Shim — B&D Fixes the Delta
B&D skinny 3 mm plates on Speed Radical make about the same delta (ramp) as earlier TLT, which I like. The plates are somewhat “universal” in that they have holes for the two Dynafit screw patterns, as well as optional extenders for front and back when used with different bindings. Very nicely done and will work for just about any tech binding toe (optional user trimming is possible as well). Check out my install on a cult ski.
B&D plate on bottom of Speed Radical toe. Click images to enlarge.
A couple pair of shims. When installing don't forget crampon mounts or the rear screws will insert a few mm deeper and may damage your skis. Speaking of screws, I happened to have some of the correct length. Talk to B&D about options or perhaps you have a resource such as a local shop.
The screws I found were about 2 mm longer than stock, which was enough for this strong ski, with epoxy of course. If you're big or ski aggressively, be more careful to match exact OEM protrusion length.
My stash. In the '60s it was beads.
Completo.
Don't forget the B&D Nubbins.
I like Nubbins so much, the camera macro function had to be tested.
Installation of Nubbins is easy.
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Comments
50 Responses to “Shim sha Shim Shim — B&D Fixes the Delta”
Does anyone make a heel shim for dynafits? My GF currently uses heel lifters in her boots for better positioning, but finds it uncomfortable to skin with the lifters in place. Would shimming the heels provide a similar benefit as the heel risers or possibly work coupled with a smaller heel lifter? She has a slightly limited ankle flex but also has fairly upright stance boots (dalbello virus) and I would like an easier to use solution for her.
Internal heel lifts function differently than external. Generally, internal mods affect the foot biomechanics while external mods affect above the foot. She should try to address the limited dorsiflexion through pt, stretching, and massage as limited ankle motion can create many other problems.
Hi Lou,
While we are on the subject of screws do you know where I can buy a full set of screws for a radical 12? Or the dimensions so I can get them, no doubt cheeper, from the hardware store?
Thanks
Stokes, I’m pretty sure you can get them from Dynafit customer service. Lou
Carl-
Is your girlfriend currently using a Dynafit or other tech binding? If so than the toe shim might be the solution. The heel lifts are helping put her ankle in a more neutral stance while she’s skiing, this angle is referred to as her ramp angle. The forward lean on her boots is creating more ankle flexion than she can handle, so the ramp angle was increased to lessen this affect.
The delta angle, which is the subject of this post, will have an affect on the ankle (sorry Ted) when she’s skinning because your upper cuff in not restricted. The increased delta angle created by many tech bindings, in conjunction with the increased ramp angle is creating quite a lot of extension on her ankle (extension = pointing of the toe).
I think this is the cause of the discomfort she’s experiencing. The solution, I think, would be the toe shim Lou is reviewing here, or something similar. This should have an affect on her ankles while skinning, and will affect the upper legs and hips while skiing; both of which should be positive.
I probably should have drawn a diagram for myself on this one, but I’m pretty confident I’ve got this right. Lou? Others? Please school me if I’ve lead Carl astray.
Tyler, reducing tech binding delta (ramp) is a very worthwhile thing to try. Most have too much for just about anyone. But don’t go too far. In my experience, a bit more binding delta in the touring binding, than that of an alpine binding, is a nice thing to have. Just not so much…
I’d be careful about skinning, however. Raising the toe up will reduce your heel lifter height. But with a person who has short feet, probably not a big deal.
Worth experimenting.
Lou
Lou, do you agree that a little less delta (like the B&D 3.2mm shim) should alleviate the problem Carl’s girlfriend is having?
My thought was that in conjunction with her heel lifts (increased interior boot ramp angle) the increased binding delta (ramp) angle was adding to her discomfort on the up hill.
I’d say tripple 9s are the odds that a binding shim will help. Remember that the shorter your feet, the more you are affected by binding delta. So it’s really a detriment for a lot of women, resulting in extreme climbing angles and ankle flex when using heel lifts, in the case of uphill.
Around here, due to having so many skis to test as well as traveling and doing ski demos, I’ve tried over the years to stay with stock bindings and just tune boots. But as skis have gotten so good at turning without 1970s technique, I’m getting pretty tired of extreme binding delta, hence I’ll be doing more shimming.
Continuing that thought, I’ve found I benefit from true “canting” involving wedges under my bindings. But I never do it, too much of a hassle.
Lisa compensated for tech binding delta by relaxing boot cuff angle as much as possible, but I’ll be shimming her bindings as well to see if she likes it better.
Bear in mind that what’s equally important to reduction of delta is to match it between your setups once you find what you like.
Lou
Thanks for some interesting feedback. She is currently using dalbello virus boots size 24.5, and dynafit radical ST10s. The heel lift helps her pressure her boot tongues because she has limited ankle flexibility, obviously stretching may help this. The discomfort when skinning is not due to ankle flex issues but from the foot-boot interface during the loose boot skinning motion, the heel lift places her in a position where the boot rubs her wrong and hurts the top of her foot/ankle. She also uses her heel lifts more often than I do and is usually on the higher option when I am on the lower (I am on 28.5 tx pros with ntn freedom) as otherwise she cannot get heels to contact creating a painful scenario for her calves.
Thinking through the foot movement, it seems that pointing her toe with the heel lift will jam her foot into the top of the boot at extension which would be helped by the toe shim, but it would cause problems on steeper tracks in reducing the lifter angle. I have some HDPE material I could try making a shim to see if it helps, but I might consult a boot-fitter first.
Hi Lou and B & D,
I was testing the B & D Classic Shim on a longer hut trip in the Europe when I started to experience some looseness of the binding mount to the ski.
I was using the B &D classic shim in the ¼ thickness with Radical ST on some 100 mm wide Atomic Charter (wood core). A few other details of the setup… I was using the B &D shim together with the factory Radical ST shim and B & D 28 mm screws.
I was on about day 4 of this tour and had been skinning quite a bit of hard snow and using Dynafit ski crampons from some sections. I have pretty big feet (327mm) So all this put a ton of torque on the toe pieces. Because the screws are so tall there is lots of leverage for the binding to pry on the screws and ski. The type of loosening I experienced was that the binding started to “twist” horizontally or pivot on the ski when trying to edge up steep icy sections. That night at the hut, I was thinking of how to fix it and the most obvious thing was that maybe the screws had come loose. But the screws were all still very tight and glued in place. I determined that this “stack” of shims and the very tall screws makes it such that the binding can pivot or twist horizontally even when the screws are tight and have not failed. The leverage point is so high off the ski and the screws are so long and the shims can slide or pivot against each other. Funny thing is, my partner scrounged up some superglue from some Brits which I applied to all the cracks around the edges in between each shim. It seemed to really get sucked into the cracks and to take well to the materials. I was able to complete 2 more days of skiing and get out and did not notice any more movement. I finished out the season like this.
A few points… Even though this was not screw failure, one thing to point out is that the B & D 28 mm screws are nordic spec threads. I like these big beefy threads, but they are not the spec that tech bindings call for. If you had your bindings mounted previously, then you get the B & D Shim and new longer screws from them, you will be putting a nordic spec screw in a alpine Spec threaded hole. This may reduce strength.
But the main issue, I believe, is the length of the screws, the leverage that the binding gets on the screws and the fact that the leverage point is at the top of a stack of shims that can slide or pivot against each other rather than being locked together. One solution might be to mount a shim or plate to the ski, then mount the binding to the plate…similar to how you traditionally mount an alpine plate setup. The B & D shims would not work well for this but this may give them an idea for improvement.
In the meantime, I took my bindings off and epoxied all my shims together and epoxied it to the ski and put the screws back in tightly with wood glue. Time will tell, but when I am on that icy non skin track on a dicey slope I still don’t trust it.
Aaron,
I’ve shimmed my toes 9mm with DIY delrin blocks. I was sufficiently concerned about torque on the bindings and screws that I did it as a two step mount rather than as a straight up shim: used an old G3 hole pattern to mount the blocks to the skis, then used a jig to get the hole pattern transferred to the block and drilled the dynafit pattern into the block once mounted on the ski. Adds a bit of weight, but guarantees adequate strength, as I ski enough stuff where a toe binding rip-out would be unacceptable.
Hi Aaron
I can see where the classic shim will not match up well with
the Rad Ft or ST base plate. The plates need to be wider.
Lou pointed that out and since I have made RAD ST-FT shim.
The FT-ST shims are wider and match the load pattern of the Ft and ST base plate.
That is what you were probably experiencing.
Email B & D (sales@bndskigear.com) and they will send you a set of RAD FT_ST shims.
Bill B
Aaron, I agree that care must be taken with high stacks and long screws.
The two-step mount with custom shims is an option, but for most people I think it works to just:
1. tooth up the ski top surface as well as bottom of shim.
1.a. Clean surfaces with denatured alcohol (keep it out of the ski holes).
2. Use plenty of plastic enabled epoxy for the sandwich between shim and ski.
3. Be sure the epoxy can ooze up into the holes in the shim, thus stabilizing the screws.
4. Be sure to tighten screws firmly.
5. The thinner the shim, the less a concern.
6. Yes, larger folks are going to more likely have problems.
I used the Radical ST spacer with machine screws and inserts. I prefer the flared base and factory appearance. I need some of those nubs though.
Better solution than epoxy on the topsheet: quality double-sided carpet tape. Works best on smooth surfaces.
Tele skiers have been shimming nonreleaseable toepieces with long screws for decades. So the carpet tape trick has a strong pedigree. 😉
I’ll just leave this here:
http://www.bindingfreedom.com/SollyFit-Radical-Upgrade-1004.htm
More expensive, but this would get you 7mm rise AND a wider mounting footprint to the ski. Not everyone would need this of course.
Nils, I like the carpet tape, but the idea of the epoxy is it oozes up into the screw holes in the plate, thus stabilizing the screws to some degree. Idea, use epoxy on the bottom between ski and plate (since you’re epoxying the screws anyway, and use the carpet tape between binding and plate.
Come to think of it, adding friction/adhesion between the binding and slick plastic plate would seem mandatory, instead of expecting the tension of the screws to keep the binding from shifting to the side. Double sided carpet tape would seem perfect for this.
Lou
Yep. I’ve used tape between shim and topsheet, and sometimes also under binding. Of course plenty of epoxy in the holes too.
The right carpet tape is incredibly resistant to the shear forces that cause the issues. Yet is easy to pry upward if you need to remove the binding.
Cool idea on these shim plates. Look forward to hearing if the new plate specially designed for the Radicals fixes Aaron’s problem. Certainly not something you want to worry about in high consequence terrain. Ramp angle sucks, but not trusting your binding sucks worse. Any question, and i’d stick to no shim.
Nils, can you suggest a brand/product carpet tape that’s been working good for you? I used some recently while doing some remodeling in the house, and noticed there were several types at the hardware store. Lou
Anybody have opinions of mounting B&D 6.4mm toe shim using binding inserts? If you were to, does anyone know the length of M5 screw to use. FT12’s.
Lou, do you have any experience mounting the B&D toe shims into binding inserts, like quiver killers? Would like to shim toe on my FT12s, currently have mounted via QKs. If I were to do this any idea on length of M5 screw?
Hi Nick, folks do mount the shims with inserts, but I’ve not needed to. Length of screw would depend on the thickness of the shim! Pretty easy to figure out. Order up your shims and study up on the insert specifications, and order up screws that are longer than the standard M5 by the thickness of the shim. Only thing I’d be concerned about is if you go for thicker shims you need to address the tendancy of binding and plate to shift/twist due to deflection of the screws. Lou
This is a follow-up to my earlier post where I mentioned I was getting some horizontal looseness or pivoting of the binding when using shims. As you recall I was using the Classic B&D Shim with Radical ST binding. See original post for more detail. Bill B from B &D read that original post and offered me a pair of their new RAD ST-FT shims. I shot him an email and he had the new RAD ST-FT Shims at my doorstep in few days. So first off, Props to B & D for excellent customer service…both in monitoring the WildSnow comments about their products and in directly addressing things that come up. I think this customer service was extraordinary.
So the question is, will these new shims fix the issue I was having with the binding twisting or pivoting horizontally on the ski? Answer: I don’t think the new shims themselves will fix the issue, but it’s not the shims fault, it’s a question of mounting methodology. The second part of the answer is that I don’t know for sure because I can’t get my old Classic shims apart or off the ski because they are all epoxied together. The main difference between the B&D classic shim and the and the new B&D RAD ST-FT shim is that the new RAD Shim is wider and fully supports the wider Radical ST and FT bindings. With the old classic shim the Radical ST-FT binding hung off the side of the shim so the binding was not fully supported. I think this could affect lateral stability and stiffness, after all that’s why Dynafit made radicals wider. So the new shims help with lateral stiffness but I don’t think they will affect the horizontal twisting or pivoting of the binding issue.
I think this new B&D shim is great and will be rock solid when properly mounted. What is properly mounted? Well I guess that is what we are all working on here together to figure out… which is one of the pretty cool things about WildSnow and the internet in general. So what does properly mounted mean? I think there are 4 options. Standard, epoxy, inserts and carpet tape.
The Standard mount is where you mount the shim with no epoxy or tape between the shims, ski and binding. This is what I did, not knowing any better, and it is not recommended as the binding may start to twist horizontally or pivot on the ski with extended heavy use. As Lou said, adding friction/adhesion between the slick surfaces of the ski, shim and binding is mandatory.
The second option is using epoxy as Lou suggested above. You roughen the surfaces, and apply epoxy between the ski, shims and binding and try to get lots on the screws. This is the setup I am currently using and it does seem to be working OK so far. I think there are several problems with this method. First, it makes it very difficult to take apart to reconfigure or remount. The other is that I don’t totally trust the epoxy. There are many types of epoxy and skis are made with epoxy, but you can never really be sure that the epoxy has really taken to the ski, shim and binding parts or that it won’t become brittle in very cold temps and extreme flexing and twisting.
The third method is inserts or two step mounting. I haven’t tried this one, but I think it is good option. In this option you first mount the shim or plate to the ski with screws or inserts, then you mount the binding to the shim. This very much reduces the issue we are talking about and is time proven method used in alpine racing plates. You do have more screws with this method, some plate flex and I’m not sure how well the B & D shims would work for this.
The fourth method is the carpet tape method that Nils suggested above. This is where you put carpet tape between the ski, shim and binding. I really think this is the best method. The carpet tape will take to all the slick surfaces, is super strong and flexible, you can still take it apart and it is a tried and true method for shimming with long screws.
One thing is for sure, when using shims with long screws, adding friction/adhesion between the slick surfaces of the ski, shim and binding is mandatory. Adding this bit of knowledge to the already great B & D shims may improve the product. Thanks to all the great ideas above and to B & D for their great customer services and innovative products.
– Aaron
Aaron – thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have been thinking about the same options lately, as I had not shimmed before, but am planning to mount some Radical FTs this year. There is a lengthy discussion on the related topic of Dynafit ramp angle on TGR. The consensus there seems to be that a good flexible marine 2 part epoxy (slow set) combined with helicoils provides for a rock solid set up.
Interestingly, I emailed Dynafit customer service to inquire as to their thoughts on the ramp angle and how shims may affect the integrity of the toe piece. Eric at Dynafit very promptly and kindly replied with the following (+1 for Dynafit customer service):
***********************
Hey Bob,
Thanks for the support. We design our bindings in an attempt to appease the widest number of consumers. Many consumers (especially in Europe) like to ski in more of a forward position. Personally I would rather be more up right so thankfully there is the shimming option.
Using the shims should not negatively effect the integrity of the binding and I do it in my personal set up.
Thanks for the support.
Best,
Eric Poore
I recently experienced the pivoting/twisting of the binding toe with shims that Aaron describes above, but only with bench testing.
My setup is Plum Guides with a B&D standard 1/4″ shim. I switch the bindings between a few skis and thus they are mounted with Binding Freedom inserts.
When mounting a new pair of skis with this method I noticed this pivoting described by Aaron. I had the boot clicked into the toe to line up the pins and the fittings in the back. After tightening down the screws (after the epoxy had cured on the inserts) I was still able to wiggle the toepiece a couple of mm side to side when I grabbed the back of the boot (while the boot was clicked in the toe) and rotated the boot side to side fairly gently. The boot was functioning as a lever in this scenario, but I wasn’t cranking on it. The ski was anchored in this scenario to the bench by a vise. The wiggle was enough to alter the pin alignment with the fittings in the back. The mounting screws were definitely tight and the inserts were solid. It seemed to pretty much disappear when I removed the shim from the equation. In ski mode I didn’t notice any slop with bench testing.
I tried the carpet tape solution described above. It helped a little (it felt less loose) but was still able to wiggle the toes a couple of mm side to side with the boot clicked into the toe (by grabbing the back of the boot and rotating it gently side to side).
Interestingly, I checked a couple pairs of older skis with this mount and the same wiggle was there in all of these insert/shim/plum toe mounts. Despite that finding on the work bench, I never noticed anything funny when skiing both pairs of these skis extensively last season. That includes hardpack and plenty of firm skinning. No pre-releases that I can remember. No true touring yet this season on these older skis but some resort uphilling seems to confirm that I don’t really notice anything in the field. I haven’t had a chance to ski the brand new skis yet on which I originally discovered this (can we get some snow here in CA?).
So it does seem that the shims do create some type of additional leverage that allows for a small amount of toe wiggle, at least when I test them this way on the bench. I only notice this in tour mode when rotating the boot side to side like I described above. Perhaps this isn’t a very applicable test to the real world. I don’t notice any slop in ski mode on the bench. And real world testing from last year didn’t raise any red flags, at least in my experience. I suppose time will tell if that remains the case.
I really like shimming the toes to reduce the ramp angle btw, so I’ll be sticking with the shims.
Hi Michael, thanks for detailing the issue. Super important. If you’re stacking you should do it in a way where there is NO abnormal movement. In my view the way to do that is epoxy each layer together so shear forces don’t create any movement. Roughen things up, clean with denatured alcohol, use plastic enabled epoxy, and use enough epoxy to squeeze up into the screw holes in the stack plates. More, I believe there is a practical limit to the height of the stack before you should go to a double mount. Not sure what the exact limit is, but it’s not a whole lot.
I like the double sided tape idea, but all that type of tape I’m familiar with is not 100% solid but rather has a small amount of give in the adhesive. Perhaps it would be fine for a short stack, but a tall stack needs extra measures, again, perhaps even a double mount.
I really like having a bit less binding delta/ramp, so will keep experimenting here as well, but I’m not stacking very high as I like having the delta/ramp of approx the original Dynafits.
Lou
I hear ya Lou. I wish there was no abnormal movement. Epoxy isn’t really an option with an insert mount in my case. It would make it permanent and I wouldn’t be able to swap between skis. I suppose I could epoxy the toe to the shim and then move the whole unit, but there would still be movement possible between ski and shim.
I didn’t think just putting the plum toe on top of a 1/4″ shim would make a big differrence. It’s very similar total height to just having the radical toe on top of an ST baseplate. The once difference here is that the dynafit baseplates are shaped to the toe and may inhibit sliding/rotating of the toepiece on the baseplate.
Like I said, I skied this setup all last season without any issues that I could notice in the field, so maybe I’m making a mountain out of a molehill.
Cheers.
On a related note I’m really hoping next year’s dynafits and the new G3 Ion have a lower delta/ramp than current Dynafits/Plums. This alone would be a big selling point to me. I know the Beast has a low ramp, but it’s overkill for my purposes.
Oh yeah, I guess we can include the new Fritschi tech binder in that category.
I’d be pretty concerned with that movement, even if it had no consequences after one season. At the least, I’d replace the screws with new ones in case of metal fatigue. About the problem with epoxy and inserts, understood. Again, perhaps the best solution for many of you guys is the double mount (plate to ski, and binding to plate.)
Yeah it will be in the back of my mind all season, which stinks. Maybe I’ll just have to ditch the shims or mount up Sollyfit toes or something to put the toe pieces on. I just don’t want to drill more holes in the skis if I can avoid it.
I just toured for a day on sollyfit/B&D 1/4″ shim/plum guide with no problem. used new 16mm pozi 3 small head 16mm screws from Binding Freedom. I could not detect any play in the system. We will see what happens when I use ski crampons?
HI there,
just ordered B&D 1/8″ shims from B&D, plus the screws for my Vertical ST Bindings.
Bindings are mounted on the relevant ski right now. Should I trust the B&D provided screws or get something else before I mount the shims? Somebody here debated nordic spec thread vs. alpine.
Cheers!
The screws from B&D will work fine, just do a pro install using best practices — including careful measurement of screw penetration that compares new screws with factory ones. Also, as I’ve alluded to before, make sure some of the epoxy fills up around the screws in the plate holes, so as to “unitize” the plate with the screws. Me, I also let the epoxy spread out on the mating surfaces. I like to be careful with shearing and play issues when using risers. Lou
Just spent a second day on plum guides and b&d shims and everything worked great. A lot if variables have changed since last year but I think the shims r getting me forward.
I also bought some 3/16″ shims to use with my vert STs. BF didn’t sell long enough flatheads so I got 20mm and 22mm M5 flatheads from another source, but 50 of each! So if anyone needs a few of those drop me a line.
The real test will be when I use my ski cramps….
Nice Harpo, thanks for the update! Pretty funny about the screws, perhaps Bill B. Could resell those on his website. Lou
Also, I think I read about this on wildsnow in the past, but I couldn’t figure where to find the info now?
The binding mount screw holes in the plastic base plate of the toes of my Vertical ST’s are very tight. The orginal mount screws thread through the plastic, but I am having a hard time threading the M5 machine screws for the BF inserts/plates through the plastic.
I think I read on WS about easing the screw holes through the plastic base plate? Is this correct and OK? Could you refer me to the WS blog that talks about that? Presumably you use a drill? Any suggestions as to what diameter drill bit?
Harpo, easy. Yes, do enlarge the holes. I can’t remember exact drill bit size, just estimate on the smaller side, and if not big enough run the next biggest size through the holes, and so on. It’s quite simple. I hate the way the screws can “jack” the binding plate up off the ski even when doing a mount without extra shim, so I always enlarge the holes. Key is to keep the holes snug, make them a size where the screw still threads in to the plastic just a bit, so it’s snug once it’s mounted and can’t move to the side. When mounting shim plates, be sure epoxy is in all holes with the screw shafts to prevent side shifting. Lou
Hi Lou,
I have a question about binding adjustment and wasn’t sure where to ask it, but since I ordered 3mm shims from B&D for my girlfriend and I for our speed radicals I thought I’d do it here!
I have a pair of vectors in a 180 mounted with speed radicals to a 306mm boot. Bought new boots for this season and BSL is 297. I know the radicals adjust +/- 12mm and should fit the new boot.
Will this affect how the ski feels or will the difference be minimal? Should I consider remounting with new boots?
Let me know what you think
Thanks!
Mike, I think the effect of your longer boots will be minimal to nothing in term of how the skis ski. On the other hand, the shims will have an effect, for sure. I’d go ahead and use with the new boots for a few days to make sure they feel ok, then mod with the shims, so you don’t get two possible “causes” going on at once. Lou
Why does Dynafit not sell Speed Radical with toe shims?
If I add B&D shims to Speed Radical, will this affect ski crampon compatibility?
Mark, if the shim is fairly thin it makes no difference, thicker and the height of the crampon starts to get up there. Main thing with all ski crampons is it’s best if the sides of the crampon are within a few millimeters of the ski edges, to prevent excessive twisting of the crampon from side to side. Lou
Ok I wondered about that Lou, why not just get a 130mm crampon and call er good? But what I hear you say is the crampon needs to be narrow enough to be supported by the ski edge
Xer, under infrequent use with lighter weight folks you can get away with some slop in the crampon, but they’re much more reliable if the edges/sides of the ski act as a sort of guide as the crampon moves up and down, to prevent excessive twisting left and right. The crampon might not always be touching the ski sides, the idea is to prevent excessive movement when necessary. Lou
Hey Lou,
So i ordered some 6.4mm shims from B&D but they are out of the 19mm screws to go with. Any idea where else would be good to obtain these from? Bollinger sounds like he won’t have these for another month which could create timetable issues for me this fall.
Would the 19mm screw be a hardware store item? I’ve never done any ski mounting and don’t really know what to look for.
Thankyousir.
Turns out Skimo.com carries the B&D shims and screws, so just got everything from them.
Perfect! I’d add that you can use wood screws to mount bindings, but sometimes have to modify the screw head and sometimes they’re not quite right. I’ve done it many times on test rigs. Lou
A couple of things to add.
I did take a fall while in tour mode on my plum/b&d 1/4″ shim/sollifit plate, and my toe piece shifted, so I had to take out my allen wrench and reposition the the toe and then retighten. It was good after that but we weren’t skiing hard. I will try the carpet tape fix and see if that helps. Also, I will check to make sure my screws are tight more often, they were a bit loose when I checked them in the field after the toe pieces shifted.
Can anyone recommend a brand or type of carpet tape?
I still have extra 20mm and 22mm M5 flatheads to use with shims and flat heads if anyone needs them.
Harpo, commercial grade double sided carpet tape is pretty good. Me, if I’ve got a plate-stack interface that I don’t need to easily reverse I’d just use epoxy, so long as the materials would stick to epoxy, anyway… but the carpet tape is pretty good stuff. As is keeping fasteners tight (grin). Seriously, as soon as you stack you should not depend on the tension of the fasteners to prevent shifting of the stack sandwich, that’s asking too much, carpet tape or epoxy to the rescue. Lou