PopSci Spills the BD Airbag Backpack Secret

The “Safeguard” and “Reboot” are definitely unique selling features that no other airbag offers.

It seems to be great! Please, more details, practical experience and tests ASAP 🙂 and… roughly expected end user price range

Sorry, it was a question: Out for this season? Or for next one?

Intrigued. I’ve found getting my Mammut/Snowpulse canister filled to be unpleasant at best, and concerning at worst. This design seems to have many advantages. If it works…

My wallet hurts already.

I’m thrilled that the battery-powered packs are on their way. Ever since I heard about them, I decided to hold off on getting a canister airbag and I’m glad they’re not too far out.

Lou, can you post a larger/higher resolution image of the page in PopSci? Or can you let us know what month’s issue we can find it in?

Jordan, it’s in the October issue, on newstands now. The article doesn’t really say anything more than what I’ve reiterated in the blog post and comments. I deliberately avoided the high-rez image out of respect for PopSci being a copyrighted publication. You can’t just scan stuff out of such a magazine and re-publish, it has to be done as a “derivative” work to illustrate something like a news or opinion piece, as I did. Other, more black-hat areas on the web might grab it and republish as a scan, but won’t happen here.

Lou

Sebastian, avalungs are nice to have in tree wells, where an airbag won’t do much for you. I unfortunately have learned this first-hand, and prefer an avalung on my pack, airbag or not.

If this concept works then I predict some big patent battles between the manufacturers….

Since it’s easily re-deployable, I wonder if I could deploy it mid-tomahawk to mellow things out a bit?

I completely agree that airbag makers missed the boat by keeping their canisters proprietary. They could have reduced costs by sourcing a single design, lowered prices to consumers, and achieved deeper market penetration, rewarding all makers with greater sales.

Airbags are not only here to stay, but it won’t be long before they’re nearly as ubiquitous as beacons. On one of my b-c ski trips last year we had a party of four, and only one didn’t have an airbag. During the course of the say, we encountered two other groups, and all of them had airbags.

If the fan systems prove to be everything that people hope (I hear Arc’Teryx is working on a fan driven system too) then we’re set to inflate the market with airbag packs. 😉

I agree with Shoveler. How many backcountry skiers read Popular Science (how many not in high school that is)? Not very core of Black Diamond!

The real question is how effective is the bag as pulling in enough air volume to inflate 200L without the inlet ports getting plugged with snow. At the speed and quickness they indicate I would foresee a potential inflation issue if your already swimming or in the flow of the avalanche.

I’m not sure about it being ‘disruptive’.
Somehow that seems to be a bigger improvement/change in technology than an incremental development. If the BD or ArcT packs were really cheap – then that could be a big change…. but I doubt that will be the case!

The fan pack idea has some advantages.
* But the main appeals to me is multiple uses on longer trips. However, the vast majority of skiers never do more than day trips so… that isn’t really a mass selling point.
* The main appeal to other is probably no hassle flying with the compressed gas cylinders.

The questions I have about the concept are how the fan works with lots of snow in an avalanche blast and cold weather operation (inflation speed).

Like the idea….but I’ve stuck with an Avalung for now due to the wieght (and cost) of an airbag system. If this thing is nearly as heavy as a regular canister pack, then it may still be a deal-breaker for me. I really feel that heavy pack on my shoulders and I do A LOT to keep my pack size down.
Dukes, Super-Fat-Bad-Mofo Skis, “Crossover Boots”….and yes – airbags, are the greatest inventions ever. They allow 40 year-olds like me to pass 19 year-olds on the uptrack – by NOT using them. 😉

Darn just as I’m about to pull the trigger on hovercraft plans PopSci does this!

In all seriousness can’t wait to see how this evolves. So excited for the future of these in snow travel.

Absolutely amazing. One day I have to have an airbag pack.

Might be too soon to ask, but I’ll ask anyway: available in different colorways than bright red?

Cool.

Great to see some companies using the grey matter with a bit of lateral thinking. The benefits are huge “if it works”. Air travel has just become less of a hassle straight up.
The potential deflation air pocket is genius.
Perhaps the second generation will allow you to detach the fans and have them dig you out.

Jeremy, very minor point, I think you would still need a venturi nozzle with the electric fan. But that’s not really something you need to ‘design’, it’s a totally standard thing.

RandoSwede, do you carry a beacon and shovel? Or is your decision-making too good to need them?

Can’t Wait…that is, til we see what Arc’teryx has in store! Love BD, but my bets are on the bird.

Weight wise, this is actually about what I was expecting. I don’t have the exact numbers handy from my MR Blackjack, but a large portion of the 3.5-ish lbs of the airbag system is the weight of the bag itself. A 200L bag that’s tough enough to survive an avalanche is going to be pretty heavy, no real way around that. Also, the pack it’s going on to still needs to be beefy enough to stay on you in the avalanche. With that in mind I’d expect a fan system to drop a half pound to a pound over compressed air, but beyond that I think you’re looking at improvements in materials, etc, that could potentially be applied to both systems.

In regards to a lighter battery, I’d like to know what practical performance in cold temps (teens and 20s) is before I’d go for that option. Right now we’ve got two data points best-case: (4 cycles), and worst-case extreme cold (1 cycle). Hopefully that is a conservative rating, but most marketing numbers for batteries are wildly optimistic. I think the only battery powered item I’ve purchased from BD is a headlamp, and the numbers on it were certainly optimistic, but that’s a headlamp- this is sort of a different class of equipment.

Lou wrote: “The main thing is you end up on the surface”
That’s exactly the point. All studies analysing airbag effectiveness conclude that an airbag will decrease burial depth but not necessarily prevent burial. But chances are rather high, that parts of the airbag or victim are visible on the surface even in cases of full burial (which referrs to head burial actually). And according to shouting: It’s a tricky thing, as most dummy experiments led to the dummy being face down and the head in the snow. Additionally, it’s a much more indirect and inefficient mean of localisation or a human than optical location.

Lou wrote: “Reality check: What is it, something around a third or more of avalanche deaths are the result of trauma?” A little less than 25% in North America and around 10% in Europe – most probable explanation are vegetation differences and less favourable skiing in trees in Europe

But the point is: there’s potential disadvantages of an automatic deflation, while I don’t see any advantage.

I just had to replace the Lithium Ion battery in my 2 year old, $2000 Mac laptop because I left it on the charger to much. I’ve had similar problems with batteries that just sat without much use. Batteries are great IF you use them regularly. Batteries in the backcountry make me nervious.

1. Multiple start zones can generate follow-up avys. SAR tends to look in the avy’s toe, so when the mountain falls onto you, rather than sweeping you up, you do not get much chance of stratering, Ditto if you were just crossing the bottom of a runout, were exiting at the bottom when caught, were below a murderer who highmarks a loop above you while you’re stuck,….A collapsing bag gives your chest room to inhale, (by letting your chest expand into the space previously occupied by the bag), when all the weight of the uphill snow otherwise boa constrict’s your chest. I just don’t see this bag design working to achieve relaxation of the snow vise pressure, on your chest.

2. The teeth clenched Avalung addresses mouth/throat snow plugs, minimizes ice masks, helps retard the onset of hypothermia when inhaled air is sourced warm from within clothing, and if I remember correctly, significantly, (possibly factorially?), delays the onset of unconsciousness due to lack of air. An avy bag/lung combo to float you, to grant room for your chest to move, reduce breathing passage plugs, and buy time so diggers find more than corpuscles would be a category killer. BD are presumably trying to avoid cannibalizing Aavalung sales figures when they ought to be focused on annihilating all avybag competition by using their Avalung tech advantage. (Nice if there was an Avalung that worked in conjunction with a fullface/chinguard helmet, like sledders use. You know – that sports group contributing the most avy dead in N. America – the group with money – the group that has a HIGH level of avy awareness, (cause it’s a real drag starting the on-hill weekend fun with a moment of silence for this week’s dead – people KNOWN by someone in the group – three weekends in a row), (and for high-markers at least, the group who are quite likely to put the mouthpiece in before taking their turn, thus eliminating the potential for the bag/lung activation choice confusion suggested above).

3. Trauma is a problem. Why wouldn’t avy bag design address this, (besides materials over-engineering)? The pack to protect the spine, helmet/collar/bag to protect head/neck, shovel blade as (chest?) armour. Who has the medical research detailing the most common/critical trauma injuries, let alone the follow-up attempts at plans/philosophies/solutions? (….or has the materials strength solution for tree shredded avy bags driven the above referenced bag/material weight complaints?)

4. Snowmobile at -28 F., at 60 mph, (-33 C. and 100 kph), (think Everest on a BAD day), for windchills of -73 F.,(-58 C.) Battery life expectancy = ????? Still have to test my electric (heated)goggle battery to brown-out, so advertised six hour life expectancy is untested, but it is not being asked to drive the moving parts of a fan, but my guess is that if humans can’t survive E-like weather then batteries are going to be a problem (either weight or working) – unless warm inside clothing — course my sled has electric ports, so with a sled powered assist, avybag batteries could be a lot lighter. Which leads me to the last point,
5. Snowmobiles provide an opportunity for equipment testing at a level beyond …..,Sledders tend to have more life experience, some with more mountain experience (some because they are too old or too broken not to need a wheelchair to take them where they have always gone), tend to have more money, tend to be a market ignored (at best) let alone considered, ….Mum used to say “don’t cut off your nose to spite your face”….

So, when testing/designing/etc. how many old folks, with how much experience, in how many different mountain/winter/snow/activity/equipment/gear/corporate disciplines contributed? Hopefully not marketing/sales, because to me, the Popular Science scoop reflects a narrow minded techie BD corporate culture/focus rather than ultimate user/customer focus. A scoop in an “oooh, it’s so COOL, look what we did” magazine, rather than in a “look what we have for you” user/consumer focused forum, (such as yours)? More important that it be known that they are cool, than that the marketplace threatened with death, actual death, knows?

I would not hold my breath waiting for their marvelous new product, hoping that it will be all things to all people when the euro-centric ski-centric world traditionally has never considered sledders, and between Pop-Sci’s scoop and no incorporated Avalung seem not to have considered any user group, let alone sledders. Any currently available bag will offer better odds/help if on you, than the greatest bag in the world not on you, and right now, with no plan for an Avalung incorporated, I wouldn’t bet that BD will create the greatest bag for anyone, let alone the greatest bag for sledders. Wait one (this) winter, possibly two, to buy BD’s kind of avybag? How many funerals could be avoided if no one waited to buy? And, if the funeral you avoided was your own? DO NOT WAIT FOR SPRING – BUY AN AVY BAG NOW – ANY OF THEM. Good luck to us all.