Dynafit TLT 5 Performance Boots — Ask Mom

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This post by WildSnow.com blogger  

Sometimes, after going to the trouble of getting a boot working for myself, I wonder if I was simply born NOT to ski. Over many years of trying I’ve only found a few boots that fit me out of the box. Dynafit? We’ll, they fit probably the same percentage of the population as any other boot brand does, but I’m in the minority that cannot just step into a Dynafit and go. Even so, Dynafit makes such sweet boots. The Green Machine, yes. Earlier TLT models for efficient climbing, yes. Original red Dynafit touring boots of the mid 1980s, yes. This season’s TLT 5 Performance, yes. Regarding the latter, check out this conversation with my boot coach:

“But, Mom, I want to be a Dynafitter.”

TLT5 Dynafit boot, with auxiliary tongue (which I'm not using) to the left. Intuition Pro Tour liner and relocated lower buckle.

TLT5 Dynafit boot, with auxiliary tongue (which I'm not using) to the left. Intuition Pro Tour liner and relocated lower buckle.



“Okay son, first, those crooked legs of yours need cuff alignment. Will you get enough of that out of the built-in cant of the Dynafit TLT5 cuff, or have to add more?” And what about your incredibly non-Italian feet there Lou, with those skinny ankles and chicken legs. Getting a snug fit for that means your size 28 feet probably need the rear part of a size 26 boot shell. But then you’d have to cut a hole in the shell for your toes. Then you’ve got your fused left ankle, so better make sure that cuff angle and ramp are perfect or you’ll be hanging for dear life on one side or the other of your sweet spot… Oh, and remember that lower buckle is going to press down on your arch and need to be moved rearward so it actually holds your foot down, instead of just causing pain. One other thing, what’s with that ankle bone the size of cabinet knob on the outside of your left foot? The TLT5 heel cup looks awfully tight in that location.”

“But Mommmmmy, I want Dynafittttttt!”

“Are you sure?”

“Yes Mom, I’ll stick some other, thicker liners in a size 28 and mold the heck out of them.”

“Young man, you know using aftermarket liners is going to increase the forward lean to the point where you feel like you’re skiing on your toe tips.”

“Really?”

Here we go:

One thing strange (or cutting edge, depending on viewpoint) about TLT 5 is you’re expected to remove the downhill skiing tongues and carry them in your pack during the up. I just can’t abide adding even more fiddle f-ing to the day, so I’m trying these boots without the extra tongues. Report on that is while using the power strap I get enough forward support from that combined with the faux tongue as well as the beefy tongue of the Intuition liner I ended up using (more on that later).

With or without the downhill tongues, first step was moving the instep buckle farther aft, so I’d get some nice ergonomic heel pocket hold-down from the things, instead of pressure on top of my arch. I moved the outside part of the buckle back about 3/8 inch and left the inside portion for now. Feels much better, but I still might move the inside back. We’ll see.

TLT 5 buckle relocate.

TLT 5 buckle relocate. Stock location is indicated by the hole visible in the shell. I covered this and the new rivet on the inside with duct tape. A bit of white silicone caulk will fill the hole. As far as I can recall, Scarpa is the only boot I've never felt a need for doing this with. Must be the shape of my foot or something.

First, I try the stock liners in the 28. Even after molding they’re so thin I get nothing but air between them and my feet. I consider blowing out the shell toes of some 27s, but I can’t get into the mood, as I knew I’d be trying to preserve the pronounced rocker of this boot, as well as the heel toe tech fitting alignment — along with making sure I didn’t mess up the metatarsal hinge area. A pair of Intuition Pro Tour liners fill up the voids, but they do feel a bit pushy behind the calf. Forward lean, here I come? For testing I go do 4,000 vert of uphilling at the resort. Every turn on the down feels like I’m skiing in high heels. (To be clear, even with the stock liner the boot had too much forward lean for my taste.)

Measuring the stock liners.

Measuring the stock Dynafit liners, they're quite thin and minimalist. That's fine if you've got average to bulky feet and lower legs. They simply did not work with my skinny bones so I went with an aftermarket Intuition Power Pro liner. Added advantage of the Intuition is the beefy tongue which makes it easier to eliminate the optional downhill tongue the TLT5's ship with.

Back to the oven for another mold. This time I give the liners some extra heat, then put max pressure on the boot spoiler while they cool. Not only does this make the liner cuff about 3 mm thinner, but it changes my foot and leg position in the boot as it molds, for a combined reduction in forward lean. Tradeoff is while doing this you don’t form as nice a heel-pocket, and your toes kind of jam towards the end of the boot as you lever back on the cuff spoiler. Some extra spacers in front of the toes inside the molding toe cap might be needed for some folks. As you can see in the specs below, by aggressively molding the Intuition, I got it to around the same thickness in the rear as the Dynafit. Result, still too much forward lean for my taste, but skiable. More later about that.

Mom was right. What an epic.

Specifications:
Intuition Pro Tour liner: 15.6 mm thick behind calf, 252 grams, thickness after remold 13 mm
Dynafit/Palu stock liner: 12.2 mm thick behind calf, 172 grams.

TLT 5 backcountry skiing boot downhill ski mode latch hole.

TLT 5 backcountry skiing boot downhill ski mode latch hole. This is under the outer shell cuff, a small nib on the buckle inserts in the hole and locks it to the cuff. I considered removing the aluminum fitting and making another one with the hole in a different place, to reduce forward lean, but doing so seemed like a ridiculous amount of work at the time. Later, however..

Okay, how does TLT 5 test out in real life? I’ve indeed been getting some vert on these, all so far without using the downhill tongues. Despite how light the TLT5 is, on the down you really notice the rigidity of the full carbon cuff, combined with the simple but super positive cuff lock. As Jonathan Sheftz has shared a number of times, if you set these boots up right, they crank turns. My only con is that as with many locked up lightweight boots, they lack the progressive flex of a bigger boot in downhill mode and thus can serve up a bit of shin bang or unpleasant shocks and vibration while skiing chop or hitting ruts. On the up, no doubt the super mobile cuff and lack of weight are delightful. In time trial testing, they knocked about 3 minutes off an uphill that takes me an average of 50 minutes, so on a big day you’ll see a noticeable energy savings and perhaps a bit more speed (if that’s important to you). Oh, and about the small amount of metatarsal flex the TLT5 provides, whatever. If you like forefoot flex, great — but to me it’s a solution without a problem.

Mode changing with the TLT 5 is not as fluid as I expected. With the stock liner, you’ve got a velcro flap on the tongue that tends to get tangled, and the power strap can be a mess. I like using the laces with my Intuition Pro Tour liners, so though I’ve eliminated the stock liner velcro, now I have a bunch of shoelace to contend with. I will say that if you get the power strap figured out, and keep the instep buckle tight enough, a delightfully quick change to downhill mode is possible since closing the upper buckle also operates the mode latch. When the upper buckle is open during the uphill, it creates quite a bit of bulk on the outside of the boot. I can barely fit the cuff of my OR Tremor pants over the whole deal. Dynafit makes pants with a window in the cuff for the buckle to protrude out of, with the intent of working the buckle without messing with your pant cuff. I guess this assumes one doesn’t use the power strap, but it is a start on solving the problem of pant cuffs that won’t fit over everything.

Myth busting: A while back I wrote in another blog post or comment that the smaller volume of the TLT5 series boots could perhaps make for colder feet. That could be true to some extent, but I am pleasantly surprised at how roomy the TLT 5 toe box is. As the size 28 shell I’m working with has plenty of length, by molding with one toe-cap I ended up with bountiful foam around my toes and still enough room to wriggle. They are warmer than my size 27 Green Machines that I had to punch the toes on. Federico will be glad to read this, as he’s acknowledged that the TLT5 could be a colder boot in some fits, but that in most fits it does have toe room if you care to create it during molding.

In all I’d say that for human-powered backcountry skiing the strong point of the TLT 5 Performance is simply the power to weight ratio it gives you for the down. The single buckle mode change is nice as are the tongue options, but this boot really does control your skis, and making sweet turns is our ultimate goal, isn’t it?

(Someone is going to ask how much different these are than the non-carbon cuff “Mountain” model. My take is that the TLT5 Mountain is still a viable alternative, but the stiff and lightweight carbon cuff is what makes the TLT5 Performance sing instead of hum. )

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Comments

241 Responses to “Dynafit TLT 5 Performance Boots — Ask Mom”

  1. Mike Bromberg February 14th, 2011 11:41 am

    Lou, I hear ya! I just ordered a pair of the TLT5p after being on megarides and intuitions since there inception, and Maestrales since Louie visited this December for the Level II.

    A lower buckle mod is the first thing on my radar, followed by some tinkering with the tongue and perhaps some playing around with the pro-tour liner out of my Maestrale’s, I’m excited to hear how the next mold goes for you. I know we have similar taste in boots, and both expressed at least a little but disappointment in the 11/12 lineup.

    It’s going to be a little bit of a battle royale between the Maestrale and the TLT5p- the winner will be accompanying me to Norway and the Alps for a busy spring (I’m also adding another variable in ice/mountaineering performance) as it would be great to cut down on baggage weights and even nicer to be able to climb relatively hard ice/nixed in my ski boots!

  2. Nick February 14th, 2011 11:47 am

    Interesting – I have to try a pair of these on. I have tried the Mountain version and they were way too soft. Even when all buckled up with the tounge, I felt I could drive my shin into the ground. I have heard the Performance was a totally different story.

    For the purpose they intend to fill, seems like a well-designed boot. Staying with my Titans, though….

  3. Tony February 14th, 2011 1:24 pm

    Did you try skinning with the stock liner just for comparison? I’d be curious if the intuitions allowed as much rearward flex/travel as the stock liner, especially skinning on the flats – do they have the “flex zone” in the rear?

  4. Jonathan Shefftz February 14th, 2011 2:38 pm

    “Mode changing with the TLT5 is not as fluid as I expected. With the stock liner, you’ve got a velcro flap on the tongue that tends to get tangled [...]”
    - So far I have 92 outings on my DyNA and TLT5 combined – the velcro strap on the stock liner is identical. On each outing, I’ve closed the velcro strap before setting out, and never undone it until the end of the outing, with no tangling or whatever along the way.
    - As for tongue insertion with the TLT5, on some outings I’ve left it at home when I didn’t need the extra stiffness, on some outings with really short laps I’ve kept it in the entire time, and on some outings I’ve swapped it in & out, which does take several seconds but still super fast transitions overall given how the combination upper cuff buckle and walk/ski switch.
    - My modification were getting custom footbeds, replacing the stock velcro “power” strap with a Booster strap (planning to revert back in the spring), and adding a zip tie to the girth-hitched fabric loop on the tongue (just to keep the fabric loop from becoming unhitched). That’s it. Haven’t even bothered molding the liners yet. Fits perfectly. The TLT5 and the DyNA are the only alpine ski boots (downhill or touring) I’ve ever had that have required so little modifcation. Thanks Dynafit!

  5. Greg Louie February 14th, 2011 4:12 pm

    My solution is a little different.

    I cut the velcro straps off the liners completely, and chopped 1 7/8″ off the auxiliary tongues to allow a more progressive initial flex but still keep them from caving in under hard pressure. I choose whether to use the tongues or not based on which skis I’m using, then fasten the power strap in back of the “faux” tongue(s) and leave them that way all day.

    Here’s how I cut the tongues:

    http://www.randosaigai.com/tltmods_4736.jpg

    Here’s my pant leg mod to accomodate the TLT 5 buckles, I leave the pants down all day too:

    http://www.randosaigai.com/pantmod_4788.jpg

  6. Dave C. February 14th, 2011 4:36 pm

    I have the TLT5 Mountains, which are (IMHO) the most versatile ski boot ever. They are stiffer than my Scarpa Matrixes, and lighter than any plastic Telemark boot (even my old T3s). Yesterday I took a lesson at a downhill resort in the morning, and in the afternoon XC skied on groomed trails with my 3-year-old son on my back. Same boots and skis.

    I find the mode switch so easy that I sometimes do it for a 100-foot downhill on an XC trail… just flip the lever back and forth. I don’t usually use the tongues for nordic skiing and resort skinning. I haven’t molded the liners either… I’m still figuring out the best way to keep my left foot from moving in the liner while in tour mode. Velcro strap gives me a bit of shin bang; if I leave it loose the heel rises slightly in the liner. I think using the laces on just the lower part of the liner will do the trick.

  7. Ed February 14th, 2011 4:48 pm

    Been out with my TLT5 Perf’s on both 182 Stokes and 178 Mustagh Ata’s since mid Dec and have to say I still think the Dynafit guys have done an unbelievable job – and that the TLT5 Perf is truly a game changer.
    Have had some boo-boos with the bottom buckles icing up though and twice now this has stopped me from easily getting the “Get me down fast tongues” into the boots. Once they really were frozen solid . . as rock.
    So harking back to the old days where we used crampons with plastic bags and PAM spray to prevent snow balling up (this was way before the days of fancy anti-balling inserts for crampons) I’ve now given the lower buckles a couple of shots of spray lube:
    http://www.super-lube.com/
    We get it here at MEC but I’m sure a lot of bike shops carry it. No further problem’o (to date anyway).
    Other than that, these really are for me the first boots (ski or otherwise) that have fit right out of the box (with molding). And cuffs on Arcteryx pants seem to fit fine over the lower buckle even when in touring mode.
    Teton also had a posting about using a little rubber doughnut on the little lock tab on the upper buckle so it didn’t fully lock into downhill mode – this was to enable you to close the buckle backwards without it locking. Anyone found a hardware store variety solution yet?

  8. Plinko February 14th, 2011 5:50 pm

    Lou,

    I don’t understand why you ditched the stock Dynafit / Palau liner so hastily? Logically speaking, it’s like buying new Ferrari then taking it home and pulling the motor out and installing a Chevrolet motor, because you’ve driven a Chev in the past and thought it ran well. The original liner was precisely engineered for that specific application, so why abandon the advantages it provides?

    Curious,

    Plinko

  9. Plinko February 14th, 2011 6:03 pm

    Dave C,

    Unless you purchased your TLT5 Mountains in Europe, the liners in are not thermo-moldable. There is a TLT5 Mountain TF that uses the same liner as the TLT5 Performance, but it won’t debut in North America until next winter.

  10. Nick February 14th, 2011 6:24 pm

    @ Tony -

    To answer your question, yes the Intuition Pro Tours have a “flex zone” in the rear where there is less foam behind the achilles to enable more reward travel.

  11. Jonathan Shefftz February 14th, 2011 7:32 pm

    I thought the Mountain’s “TF-X” liner was thermomodable, like with the Titan/Zzeus/Gaia TF-X liners, but just not to the same extent as the TF liners?
    Either way though, like Plinko said the whole point of the DyNA/TLT5 design is a close-fitting slim shell with a thin liner. Going up to a bigger shell size and putting in a thicker liner is just putting more mush between your foot and the shell.
    My DyNA & TLT5 shells have a bsl of 287mm. My actual foot size is 265mm. That means that the total extra width of plastic, foam, and any air space 22mm, front and back combined. Perfect! (And I didn’t lose any toe nails last season, even on long downclimbs/hikes in the late spring and early summer.)

  12. Dave C. February 14th, 2011 7:43 pm

    Federico of Dynafit says the TX-F liners are moldable:

    http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/200054-Dynafit-TLT-5-Boot?p=3043965#post3043965

    Lots of detail about both types of liners in that post.

  13. Christopher3000 February 14th, 2011 9:47 pm

    After waiting for some time for TLT5 performance to become available at a pro-price, I went with a pair of Maestrales instead, which have mostly been great. I notice, however, that I find the forward lean to be too severe in the forward setting, and insufficient in the rearward setting, something that seems to be a problem for lots of people in TLT5 as well. I still prefer the forward setting, but I wonder if there are some common fixes for this type of thing in touring boots, so that I can still use the forward setting but without feeling like I’m going to go ass over teakettle occasionally…

  14. Christian February 15th, 2011 6:21 am

    I felt that this test was like testing a powder ski on ice….i.e. not a real review of the boot. Hope to see a review of the non-modified boot by a real dyanfiter and not a dynafit wannabe ;-)
    Reading your test I was wondering if your modifications have actually altered the feel of the boot. I feel that progressive flex is one of the strengths of the boot – at least compared to something like the zzero4c. Could it be that it is the new position of the lower buckle that causes this?
    (I ski it with a tounge, it fits perfectly. I think it skis great, but I tend to overpower it for the first few turns when comming from alpine gear.)

  15. Skian February 15th, 2011 7:28 am

    Lou, love that you finally got a pair of Tlt5P’s. With over 60 days on this boot now i would say it is by far the best speed touring boot i have ever walked in. In it’s category no one has come close to the performance. that being said a quick qualification on this category.
    Speed mountaineering is fast and efficient, quick approaches, no standing around, and combination of skiing, booting and walking along ridges. There is a difference to speed touring which i categorize the TLT5 Mountain and Speed mountaineering which is the TLT5 Performance.
    As for the mods you did to fit that club of yours (not that there is anything wrong with it, mine is just as ugly with as much baggage) in there. I would of taken a little different approach.
    There is very little foam or insulation in the tlt5p. I have skied it for +30 to -30 this year. Below 0 you had better be moving. It’s a speed boot. if you stand around on snow for any length of time your feet get cold ( I have used a modified bike booties on really cold days and it does help) .
    As for the mods… the best way to mod this boot is through shell mods. And when i say that i do recommend working with a professional. This boot being made up of Grilamid ( a new super light super stiff plastic) is incredibly new to the ski boot market. Matter of fact i think it is a first. That being said your average Joe fitter is not going to know the best way to do this but as earlier posters stated this is a Ferrari. You can get up to a whole size of pushing with the right tools and technique. I know this is a do it yourself blog but even some engine and machine work must be done by a pro.
    As for the change in liners the tlt5p liner is not thick and after 50 days of hard use it is going to be probably done. I have many days from 4 am to 10 oclock at night in the boot only because i took the time to take that hard shell and mold the plastic to my deformed foot. I am a 29.0 and for the first 20 days I had to used a pushed and worked 27.5 to get days on it. Then switched to the 28.5 early season this year. IMO liner molding is compromising what really needs to be done. Boot Fitting. Sure you can put on a big volume boot and cook the liner but eventually it packs out and you get slop. Liner mods are comfort mods. Boot fitting by a pro takes your personal spurs, morton toes and tailor bunion’s and move the hard material that causes pressure point’s.
    Also by removing the liner that was designed for the articulation of the boot and putting in a generic liner designed for many boots is a compromise in my opinion. The articulation of this boot is it’s true keystone. Intuition does a good job but the liner you put in is not designed for 60 degrees of articulation compared to that of a standard touring boot which is around 40.
    After being a stinky foot guy for 25 years i shiver when a client walks up and say’s “oh i have a Scarpa foot or I have a Garmont foot?? Time for maybe another thread on Wild Snow?? Americas top boot fitters… Because some things on Ferrari’s just should be left to professionals. We all want to get more days in and foot pain free. Invest in the base engine and it will go faster with less pain.
    “Get outside have some fun and enjoy the backcountry!”

  16. Jonathan Shefftz February 15th, 2011 8:00 am

    I’ll up the ante on Skian’s praise: the TLT5 cf is the best ski touring boot ever, with the only caveats pertaining to individual fit and perhaps some skiers’ notions of “touring” as entailing some combination of hucking and/or extensive mechanized uphill transport.
    As for durability, the TLT5 didn’t arrive until early December, so only 27 outings so far, but the DyNA I reviewed here last year I’ve had since early January 2010, so 65 outings on them. Liners still seem pretty much as when I received them. The big concern though is extensive wear in the cf shell around the two rivets, such that the upper cuff has lots of play, even when locked in ski boot. Since I’m using the DyNA only with my rando race skis now, I’m not all that concerned, but I’m wondering if this is warranty-able at the end of the season? I also sure hope this doesn’t happen to the TLT5 cf.
    Overall, I’m probably the skier least excited about the TLT5, since I pretty much expected it to be this amazing after skiing the DyNA all last season. The only surprise is how rock-solid the forward flex is with the removable tongue insert, and also how skiable the boot is even with the tongue removed.
    The only possibly comparable boot to the TLT5 is the upcoming La Sportiva series. Otherwise, the TLT5 is pretty much in its own category, with a performance:weight ratio that is seemingly impossible.

  17. wyomingowen February 15th, 2011 9:28 am

    More praise….25+ days on the tlt5p… 100k+. Bummed to hear I’m at the 1/2 life of my liners. I sewed the tongue straps but haven’t even carried them in weeks! When touring I leave the powerstrap wide open, the nub at the end keeps it from totally coming undone, otherwise I think the strap limits cuff rotation. The liner velcro is integral, take a moment do it right and you will not touch it until you take it off. You need to be patient with fit, for me the liner accommodated the tight metatarsal after 10 days, but pronators beware… the heel cup is very low volume and with the thin liner pronation pressure against the heel is amplified. This boot is the first time I have ever had to “post” the arch but now it’s fine. Once the paint chips on the lower buckles they will glop so be ready to mitigate. As for wear on the shell the only abnormality I have noticed is the carbon grinding into the lower shell, I have grooves on the grilamid lower. I’m hoping now that there is 25 days they are “worn in” Skian, any thoughts? As for ski performance, 2 thumbs up at 100mm underfoot

  18. Lou February 15th, 2011 10:01 am

    LOL, looks like I stirred up a hornets nest (or perhaps a worship session?) while I was gone doing that V-day thing…

    The first part of this post is simply intended to show what I needed to do to get the boots working for my feet and my style. Some people need mods on a given boot, some don’t . Any experienced skier knows that boot mods and fitting tweaks are normal, not something weird to get defensive about.

    Because a boot required some tweaks does not reflect poorly on that boot.

    In the second part of the review, I agree, they’re good boots.

    As for which liner I picked, I thought I made it clear that even after molding and tweaking the stock liner didn’t take up enough volume, which is why I went aftermarket. I didn’t mean to panic you guys. Of course I’d use the stock liner if possible, it is indeed nicely designed and yes, if one doesn’t like the velcro they can simply cut it off.

    Mainly, there are dozens of boots that ski downhill just as good as a TLT5 — where the TLT 5 shines is by shaving weight and giving better uphill ergonomics. The latter qualities are very impressive — it’s going to be hard for me to go back to my heavier boots.

    Also, I probably should have mentioned that indeed the boot is quite skiable without the extra tongue. That’s good, as I was NOT into carrying a set of tongues around and sticking them in my boots before every run.

  19. Skian February 15th, 2011 10:04 am

    One other thing i have done is remove the power strap which is not a booster and attach a true Booster. this allows for a more progressive flex. Also for low volume on calf add some medium density material behind calf for a more positive initial flex. As for the wearing of the Grilamid I don’t think this is a performance issue. I don’t see an image of this so cant make an educational guess. I have quite a bit of mountaineering in the tlt 5. The Mistrale is a fantastic boot but i don’t think these to boots are in the same class. The tlt5M is closer to Mistrale in performance. Both accept crampons but more swing weight will give you better punch when setting points. I have some friends headed to Everest this spring with TLT5P in hand for a few ski projects. These guys are some of the best i know and will have huge insight to performance in big mountain environments.

  20. Federico February 15th, 2011 10:05 am

    Oh my god :-) … I’m scared some people can be panic by this huge modification work… honestly those boots fits perfectly to most of the population, the original TF liners fits/works perfectly (by the way are much more expensive than intuituion for a boots producer) and are used on the TLT5 performance as we wanted the best compromise between lightweight, mobility and precision in fit and they are developed together with the shell last for the best result!.
    The lower buckle placement is PERFECT for 99,9% of the population and there is no need of modification, moving it backward as Lou did might be ok ONLY if you have a super skinny foot.. with normal or high arch feet that position will be deadly painful.
    Sometimes when I read blogs in north america (only) there is always a big research of changing/modifiing and blaming about micro details … even on such a big and great thing like the TLT5 project….
    I mean changing buckles position, changing liners, putting boosters instead of normal velcro… these are all things which has been carefully evaluated during the development process… and the decision taken was to get the best not to save money! …
    The TLT5 performance was one of the few boots project done without a target price … just do it the best possible… then it will cost what it cost… So if we don’t use a booster is because from our experience there is no added performance but a lot of added weight… we develop our liners with Palau, even if they are more expensive (made in france) because we think they are the best and we decide buckles positions on the best place for most of the peoples feet.

    One suggestion… I have a medium experience in skiing… but a pretty high experience in managing a boots development team and testers and one thing I learned … when you have a new ski boot, especially if it’s so different from the others as the TLT5 wait a few times before trying to change anything on it… most of the times, after 7-10 ski days you will get used to it.
    If you skied for 2-3 season in a boot you get really used to it especially on forward lean and cuff alignment. When you get a new boot, even with small differences you will feel it doesn’t work and that everything is wrong on it… Just wait a few times and you will most probably get used to it… If after 10 days you still don’t like it then try to modify ;-)

    As regards bootfitting it’s a good thing… but to be done ONLY IF NECESSARY … guys never forget that stretching a shell with average 2,5-2,8mm thickness can be done, actually is quite easy to do, but It’s always a modification which have some impacts on the structural strength of the shells.. so it has to be done only to remove some painfull pressure points on the width and so on.
    I’m generally against the theory to buy shells one size smaller and stretch them on the toe to fit a longer foot. I recommend this only to girls or men’s with super skinny feet to avoid foot movement and blisters.

    Love that the TLT5 is getting so much attention and glad to see that such a skinny boot made from some crazy spaghetti lovers can be successful also in north America ;-)

  21. Skian February 15th, 2011 10:10 am

    Lou, no hornets nest just incite from your followers. Love a place to give people ideas what to do to make it work. :) IMO for most i feel the new green machine could be the next step. I am frothing at the mouth for mine. 40 degrees of articulation instead of 30 full carbon wrap. It’s really going to be the machine.

  22. tony February 15th, 2011 10:28 am

    I also use the Intuition Pro Tour with my TLT5Ps. Upon recomendation from my bootfitter, I went a size down from my shell size for the liner size. This was because I had such a tight shell fit that the smaller liner size would alow the liner to expand to fit my foot for length and width, but put less foam between my foot and the shell. First mold was too tight, but after the second the fit is great. Main reason I went with the Pro Tours was the additional warmth, and it is noticable on cold days. I am using the original liners on warm days.

    I went up a size with my TLT5P’s from my Zzeros/Titans so I wouldn’t have to punch for length and width. So far the TLT5P’s have fit great without any shell modifications.

    I had my local seamstress, who works for beer, make me a custom “speed lacer?” based on the pattern of a lace up ankle brace. I got this idea from Lou’s post last year about ankle blisters and modifying an ankle brace to tie up around a non-lace liner. I haven’t used the lacer in anger, but wearing them in my house they tighten up the fit of the Dynafit liner without causing any spots that were too tight.

    One minor problem I have had with this boot, on 8+ hour days, I have developed blisters on my instep right at the rivet for the lower buckle. My boot fitter has added boot fitting foam to the outside of the liners at these spots; I will see if this fix works. I have had this problem with both sets of liners.

    Also, what are the durablilty problems with these boots? I have head of people loosing the wire loop for the lower buckle. Fix is to tape around the wire where it is fixed to the lower buckle to keep it from coming loose. It was also reported that Greg Hill broke the upper buckle after hitting it on a rock. Anyone else do this/how common is this problem?

  23. Lou February 15th, 2011 10:51 am

    People that work for beer should be exempt from income tax.

  24. Lou February 15th, 2011 10:52 am

    Um, regarding new Green Machine. Yes, I think it’s my boot. But then, the weight of the TLT5 Performance is addictive.

  25. Scott February 15th, 2011 11:00 am

    All this talk of TLT5 makes me want some so badly….. I, for the life of me, can not fit into Dynafit boots. I have tried, used different liners, etc….

    I consider myself an above average skier, charge agressive lines, get about 50+ days a year in the BC… I still have a hard time justifying buying a super expensive boot that does not fit, and spending more $$ to make said boot fit.

    I must have less disposable income than many here, but looking at $1,200+ for a pair of customized boots is a hard pill to swallow. As it stands I spent $2500 this year on a new setup, that was with boots with no customizing other than my own homebrew shimming and re-enforcing….

    Will the whole lightweight/performance craze get to the point where it prices out many people. I ski a lot in the winter, and therefore a lot of my time is spent recreating not making money, its hard to afford to ski AND buy super expensive gear.

    I hope that BD, Scarpa, etc… start to follow Dynafit’s lead on boots. I’d love to have a boot that is light and performs well, and fits decently out of the box. I don’t mind having to do a little boot work, but punching out toes, buying new intuition liners, getting orthotics, etc becomes quite overwhelming. My local ski shop (awesome btw) tries to convince me that if I spend enough money I’ll never have a blister again. I think I’ll suffer through the blisters of ill fitting performance boots, the money I save by suffering through blisters and hot spots is better spent on gas, malted beverages, and days of skiing…… I remember from my racing days and alpine skiing days that most every year I lost each of my big toenails at least once a season. This year I’ve been climbing a lot of bootpack terrain and will loose at least one toenail, I still cant see that spending an extra $400 is worth it.

  26. Lou February 15th, 2011 11:29 am

    The lightweight performance craze might price some people out, yep, perhaps they spent all their coin on that $6,000 mountain bike I see on top of their Suby. :D

  27. Skian February 15th, 2011 11:34 am

    Scott, just because they don’t fit your foot out of the box does not mean they don’t fit. Investing in fit is something that is personal. If you don’t mind toe bang and blisters from ill fitting boots and don’t feel it is worth the money to invest??? Well lets just say feet come in Millions maybe billions of shapes. On another note they just might not be the boot for you. Ski shops come in all shapes sizes and also skill sets. Your shop might be a top boot fitter? I find that there are really only a handful of top boot fitters in any region of this country qualified to manipulate this material if needed. They have invested their lives in stinky feet. I give you a few here i know in Colorado Oregon and Utah and Norcal.

    Bob Gleason boot doctors Telluride Colorado
    Jim Schaffner the Start house Truckee California
    Mark Elling Bend Oregon
    Earl Middlemiss Sport Loft Salt Lake
    Dennis Maw Black Diamond retail
    Larry Larry’s bootfitting Boulder Colorado

    Now this is not a go to but just a few fitters i know can work on these high tech pieces of art. I am sure there are many more quality fitters out there but knowledge of this material and it’s manipulation capabilities is few and far between. Good luck and i hope you fine a Dynafit boot for your foot.:)

    Now not opening up a can of worms but boot fitting is an Art as much as a science.

  28. Dave C. February 15th, 2011 11:53 am

    I’d pay $400 to not lose a toenail. Just sayin’ ;)

  29. Federico February 15th, 2011 11:56 am

    Scott… I know the boots are very expensive and I’m sorry for that… but I can honestly tell you we are not gaining more money compared with other boots… they are just much more expensive to produce, very expensive plastics, very expensive assembly operations, SUPER expensive carbon fiber parts, very expensive moulds set and developement times … this unfortunately the cost to pay for technology/performance…
    As regards the fitting issue… I’m also very sorry you can’t fit them but if you fit the BD last I can understand why. That’s a super roomy and wide last, totally the opposite of what we made on the TLT5..
    Honestly I tell you… that the precise fit is 50% of the reason why the TLT5 is skiing so great… Going to a wider/roomy fit will make it more comfortable but less performing.
    The TLT5 is addressed to a very specific target which wants the best for climbing and the best for skiing and the lightest… the rest is secondary…
    Maybe one day there will be a more comfortable version targeted to a wider consumer group.

  30. Darin February 15th, 2011 12:17 pm

    Lou, how long does it take you to get a pair of boots like these into a skiable state? I’m intrigued about your lower buckle relocating since I have the same problem (high arches that just get compressed/bruised instead of being held in place) and never thought of actually moving the buckle itself.

  31. Peter Baumgartner February 15th, 2011 12:18 pm

    “Also, what are the durablilty problems with these boots? I have head of people loosing the wire loop for the lower buckle. Fix is to tape around the wire where it is fixed to the lower buckle to keep it from coming loose. It was also reported that Greg Hill broke the upper buckle after hitting it on a rock. Anyone else do this/how common is this problem?”

    Something similar has happened to me. On the first couple of trips my TLT5p were way too tight, so the lower buckles could only be closed on the first notch. When walking through deep snow with hard crust, they would often open by themselves. Due to the constant pressure from below (from the hard crust), the black metal that holds the yellow buckles was bent. So first lesson: make sure that your boot fits nicely, and then always close the lower buckles TIGHT, so that they do not open by themselves. Fede has suggested something similar on TGR.

    While I was walking through deep snow, I broke through the crust and hit a hidden rock with my open (exposed) upper buckle. The impact bent it so far, that locking the cuff was impossible after that and I had to ski down with an open cuff. So second lesson: when climbing rocky ridges or walking in rocky terrain, pull down your pants over the cuff hole and close the upper buckle. Since the pants cover the hole the cuff won’t lock and you still have enough articulation for walking and climbing, but the upper buckle is out of the way and cannot be damaged anymore if you accidentally touch a rock.

    Even better if you have pants with built-in gaiters. Then you can use the inner gaiters to cover the hole, lock the upper buckle, and then cover the everything with the outer shell of you pants. That way the whole cuff and your upper buckle is completely protected and you can climb without worries…

  32. Eric February 15th, 2011 12:21 pm

    I’m with you Scott. I’ve got a wide forefoot and a very high instep. I’d imagine you can punch out the forefoot, but can anything be done to make more room in the instep? I’d love to try a pair of these boots, but I’d be concerned I’d spend over $1,000 and end up with a boot that still doesn’t fit.

  33. Lou February 15th, 2011 12:33 pm

    Darin, moving buckles is something boot fitters have been doing for at least 30 years.

    As for how long it takes me to tune my boots, usually a few weeks with skiing in them three or four times a week. But that’s to get them to the best state. Long before then they usually work.

    More, if a person skis a lot, boot work can be a constant job just like ski tuning and base repair. It’s just part of the game.

  34. Lou February 15th, 2011 12:39 pm

    Um, I forgot to mention in the review that the TLT5, while lower volume, is warmer than I expected. See paragraph I added to later part of review. This will make Federico happy enough to order a double espresso.

  35. Lou February 15th, 2011 12:43 pm

    Peter, the upper buckle really does stick out too far when in hiking/climbing/open position in mountain terrain. A very valid criticism. I’m actually looking at modding mine ASAP to get it to a lower profile. If nothing else, it already ruined one of the cuff zippers in my Tremor pants.

    This reminds me of the original F1 Scarpa, which had that aluminum thingy at the rear that stuck out like the tail section of an A380 Airbus. Scarpa fixed that, which was a huge improvement.

  36. Lou February 15th, 2011 12:48 pm

    RE Feddy’s concern about my mods. They are nothing. Move a buckle, mold an aftermarket liner, ho hum. Perhaps I need to live up to his expectations and cut the faux tongue out and rivet in a real tongue? Now that would make it worth another plate of spaghetti. And about that buckle that sticks out to the side like an airplane wing? Hmmmmm…. :lol:

  37. Federico February 15th, 2011 12:50 pm

    If you hit a rock on any kind of boot buckle you can damage or bent it ;-) anyway shit happens… just pay attention when you climb :-D
    Even if the buckle after a huge is totally broken can be easily fixed for the descent. Just place the pin on the hole and make a lap around it with duct tape all ski mountaineers should carry on the backpack it will be possible to ski down no problem and buckles can be easily replaced…

  38. Lou February 15th, 2011 12:53 pm

    Suggestion for Feddy: Simply provide two lower buckle positions/holes, with removable fastener. That would be a HUGE feature in my opinion.

    Skian, regarding your sports car analogy; It’s a good one, as I’d say to everyone here (including Fed) that most guys I know who are serious about their sports cars end up modding them in one way or another, even if that means just experimenting with different meats or seats. Like boot liners?

  39. Lou February 15th, 2011 12:54 pm

    Fed, he he, we shall see how many seasons before you guys make that buckle fold in closer to the boot cuff. :lol:

  40. Federico February 15th, 2011 12:57 pm

    Lou if you can develop from zzzzero a boot better than the TLT5 we hire you immediately ;-) … to make new things and invent new concepts is not easy as it looks like but it’s very easy to comment and do “personalization” to exisisting stuff…
    I perfeclty know the TLT5 is not perfect but oveall it’s a good product selling pretty good and making a lot of skiers super happy… ;-)

  41. Federico February 15th, 2011 12:59 pm

    didn’t understood ..sorry… what does it means: ” we shall see how many seasons before you guys make that buckle fold in closer to the boot cuff”

  42. Lou February 15th, 2011 1:01 pm

    Fed, am talking about improvements I predict you guys will make to the boot. As many readers here know, I like to try and predict the future despite at least a 50% chance of being wrong part of the time (grin).

  43. Lou February 15th, 2011 1:07 pm

    A long long time ago in this comment thread, Tony asked about articulation of the Pro Tour liner. Yeah, it isn’t quite as flexy as the stock TLT5 liner, but I don’t notice the difference at all since it still flexes and has a flex zone, and I’m not doing much touring where I really open up my stride. My left fused ankle does have some movement (only upper joint is fused) so I enjoy having some articulation on that side as well, but the Pro Tour easily provides enough.

  44. Federico February 15th, 2011 1:07 pm

    There is always space for improvement ;-) but not on the cuff buckle, that will remain like that forever, if you check out how the system works you will see that you can’t change that buckle position even of 1mm.
    The hitting rock is really a minor issue… I can seriously estimate a 0,005% return rate of broken buckles for hitting rocks in the yearly sales of TLT5 …
    For the lower buckle cable a little modification on the retaining fins is done already but as I tried to explain on tgr if the metal loop is on the right place and checked at any tour it’s nearly impossible to lose it.

  45. Lou February 15th, 2011 1:28 pm

    Fed, we operate pretty much independently of TGR, so please keep the references to a minimum. Apologies if that makes for some repetition, but that’s the way it is. Purpose in that is we try to provide a very different environment. Some folks here really like to just stay here and their other favorite websites, which in some cases, though it’s hard to believe, do not include TGR. Lou

  46. Lou February 15th, 2011 1:31 pm

    Fed, don’t take this stuff so personally. Yes, it’s easier to comment on stuff and mod it than it is to develop it. That idea is axiomatic to blogging. More, any number of ideas for manufactured products have come from modders and individual idea communicators, so what we do here and elsewhere has a greater purpose than just mental stimulation, to put it politely (grin).

  47. Peter February 15th, 2011 2:12 pm

    “The hitting rock is really a minor issue… I can seriously estimate a 0,005% return rate of broken buckles for hitting rocks in the yearly sales of TLT5 …”

    Hi Fede,

    I guess that I was among the unlucky 0,005% – Anyway, wanted to let you know that I absolutely love these boots, and that I don’t really want to go back to my trusty old green machines anymore.

    The only advantage of my old Zzeros is that I don’t really worry about hitting rocks or scratching them up. Not so with my new TLT5s. Kinda hard not worrying with a €700 boot. ;-)

    Anyway, kudos to you and your team for designing such a great boot. If you do end up making incremental improvements in the coming seasons, then please do so in a manner that these improvements can be applied to the current model as well.

  48. Ben W February 15th, 2011 2:34 pm

    I looked hard at at the TLT5 P but finally went with the Maestrale. The reasons: fit (not even if Jesus were my boot fitter), fiddley tongue, breakable buckles, low cuff. The TLT5 is a remarkable boot, but not without compromises. I can see why folks are excited about it, but I’m not ready to worship at the altar yet. Maybe the new Green Machine will make me regret my decision, but I think the much deserved hype surrounding the TLT5 is obscuring the fact that the Maestrale skis and skins better than every middle weight boot around and that even a beautifully executed ultralite product must omit features that some value.

  49. Scott February 15th, 2011 3:02 pm

    Thanks for the feedback, skian and federico…

    I do understand my foot, its not a Dynafit foot, it is more of a club that has skinny ankle and fat calf….

    Honestly, I would probably pay $1100 for a pair of TLTs IF i could know 99% they would fit and feel good. I work with composite a lot, and understand that costs and tight tolerances involved. I don’t expect every company to cater to my feet, I just am waiting for the day when I can have a little easier time getting adequate ski boots.

    My local ski shop is not a a bootfitter, but I am close to Telluride, and have talked to them about such things. They were willing to try to make Dynafits work, but were honest that after the time and money spent i might not be much better off than taking the BD route.

    Lou, I certainly don’t have a $6,000 bike. If I had that money I’d have a BMW 650 Dakar motorcycle…..

    Oh well, I still dig all my other Dynafit gear, and hope the TLT 5 pushes other manufactures to follow suit.

    BTW, i figure I have a 50/50 chance of keeping at least one toenail this season :)

  50. Skian February 15th, 2011 3:10 pm

    Scott, Hope you get some snow soon. Will be in Telluride in a month hoping the snow fall increases down there. Oh and if your looking a a 650 Dakar I’d get a KTM 450 throw a 540 big bore kit and a 41 mm over bore on the carb with a Stillwell Suspension. Oh hold on I already did that. Now that’s a Telluride San Juan desert rig.

  51. Lou February 15th, 2011 3:21 pm

    Scott, thanks for the humor!

  52. Lou February 15th, 2011 3:24 pm

    Ben, the Maestrale is NOT getting ignored here. Far from it. You guys have to consider we do a new blog post nearly every day, so what’s hot one day, well, it’s not the end-all be-all of WildSnow.com!

    Link for Maestrale info and posts

  53. Darren February 15th, 2011 3:27 pm

    I am incredibly impressed with the insight and information Federico provides here. It is a rare occasion to actually hear from the designer/developer of a ski boot. I’m pretty certain the TLT 5 is going to be my next touring boot real soon!

  54. Jonathan Shefftz February 15th, 2011 3:34 pm

    The other amazingly aspect of this boot, is that all you have to do is leave out the tongue and temporarily remove the velcro strap, then you suddenly have a rando race boot only a few trivial ounces “heavier” than the DyNA and F1 carbon.

  55. Lou February 15th, 2011 3:38 pm

    Good point Jon, and, you can also leave that stuff off and have an even lighter touring boot!

  56. AndyC February 15th, 2011 10:51 pm

    I’m enjoying my TLT5 Mountains TF-X; didn’t thermofit the liner and it is now broken in nicely. I do notice I need to up the lower buckle a notch if I don’t use the booster tongue for downhill. I did have the lower wires pull out on a steep downhill (didn’t notice it till I stopped) but but them back in easily using my Brooks Range multitool. And now I know why I have the Mountain instead of the Performance–I have a BMW F650GS (not the Dakar) and a Kona double suspension mountain bike that cost only a quarter of $6k, and a road bike that was just a bit more expensive–I’m just a low-performance guy with only 43 bc days so far this season, but I love the touring on the 5s, Verticals, and Manaslus!

  57. Mike Bromberg February 16th, 2011 10:16 am

    My TLT5 P’s arrived yesterday. I’m going to ski them unmodified for at least a few weeks.

    I really think the Palau liner is a thing of beauty but even putting my custom footbeds into the liner, caused some pain due to the lack of volume.

  58. Lou February 16th, 2011 10:23 am

    Andy, that sounds like a really low end bicycle quiver, you’d better upgrade soon (grin). Otherwise your Subaru will get towed due to not having expensive enough of a bike on top.

  59. gtrantow February 16th, 2011 3:43 pm

    Comparo TLT 5 to F-1 Race: I have recently tested the Dynafit TLT 5 Mtn and the Scarpa F-1 Race, which are both non-carbon and second from the top in their line. My feeling is that the F-1 has better ankle articulation and less fiddle factor compared to the TLT 5, but the F-1′s lower strap was painful on my mid-foot (tarsal bones). The lower strap created too much pressure on the top of my feet unless the strap was left very loose, resulting in more foot movement and hot spots.
    The TLT 5 Mtn is much stiffer, skis better and fits my low volume foot much better than the F-1. This holds true wiith the tongue removed. The lower buckle strap and shell are anatomically correct for my foot. I will learn to deal with the fiddle factor due to the key advantages of the TLT 5.
    Another favorable point is the “snow feel” with the TLT 5. This boot allows me to feel the ski/snow under my feet, perhaps due to thinner materials. Anybody second my snow feel vote.

  60. scree February 16th, 2011 5:02 pm

    Thanks for the review Lou. And many thanks to Fede for the boot and your great replies here and at TGR.

    What I like about this boot is the rearward articulation. For instance, when I am skinning uphill using my heel climbing posts and then get to a flatter spot, I don’t have to bother rotating the heel post to a lower position thanks to that rearward range of motion.

    The fit is too wide/high volume for me. Had to add padding in front of the instep area. But I have never had a boot that is even remotely narrow/low volume enough.

    I also made a closed cell foam doughnut (girth hitched thru the buckle hole with some string) that I can put over the upper buckle locking post so I can close the cuff but still have a free moving upper cuff on hardpacked traverses across steeper terrain. When the cuff was totally unlocked, it was unstable and painful on my ankles, I needed the support of a closed but not locked out cuff.

    I ditched the powerstrap and 2nd tongues. Overkill for me. I do get bad shin bang unless I tighten the upper buckle down pretty tight.

    I don’t feel any flex in the metatarsal at all. Nada. Forward lean feels fine when the cuff is locked out. Skis fine on the downhills.

  61. Mike Bromberg February 16th, 2011 5:06 pm

    Just back from my first ski on the TLT5p. The tour mode performed exceptionally well, that was expected. The downhill performance was impressive, both with and without the tongues.

    Without molding the liners, or any real fitting these were extremely painful just inside the instep buckle. The pain appeared to be caused by a combination of the overlapped liner material as well as a close fitting shell.

    Anyone else experience this and have any beta for a remedy?

  62. AndyC February 16th, 2011 6:03 pm

    BTW, I would also like to express my appreciation to Federico for his participation in the discussions here and elsewhere. His clarifications, descriptions, and discussions were great and gave me the confidence to order my boots sight-unseen, because I live literally hours from any shop that was due to get them; I got on the waiting list at 3 places, and finally got them as a Xmas gift (but a month late :-)). I really appreciate a designer’s point of view, in addition to the user’s point of view provided by Jonathan S. and others; really helpful to me, way out here in the deep snow.

  63. AndyC February 16th, 2011 6:08 pm

    @Lou: I don’t worry about my Kona Kickapoo King or my Klein Q-Carbon causing my Sub to be towed, 1st, because I live deep in rural America where police seldom visit (and you can’t blame them with all the constant sounds of freedom [gunfire] around here :-); and 2nd, because my Subaru is a 2011 and anyone who tows it is likely to break something in the drive train, body, or frame and they are sure to see the bumpers stickers–NW Avalanche Center, NW Flyfisherman, Snow-park Permit, and esp. insured by S&W LOL

  64. Zoom February 16th, 2011 10:13 pm

    I have been skiing the TLT5P for three months. They are awesome!
    Much lighter and stronger than my old Garmont Heliums. I ski two skis, the DPS Wailer 112 and last years K2 Darkside (128 waist) The boots drive both skis really well. The low weight and great range of movement are awesome while skinning. I prefer an upright stance and these boots have an excellent forward lean and stance. I was a Garmont fan now I am converted to Dynafit. The fit and performance are great, nothing else compares. I molded the linner myself and the fit like a glove, the most comfortable boot I have ever had.
    Thanks for the great work Fredrico!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  65. Lou February 16th, 2011 10:21 pm

    Just got back from another 4,000 vert of testing TLT5P, not using tounges. Really impressive how they ski without the tongues. I just snug up the power strap and it holds my leg from too much forward action. Not very progressive in terms of forward flex, but it works. Still having problems with heel fit, will try heating the aftermarket Pro Tour liner heel area a bit tomorrow and see if it snugs up. My fault the heel pocket didn’t mold well, as I was wanking around trying to mold with less forward lean.

  66. Zoom February 17th, 2011 12:05 am

    I forgot to mention, I have not made one turn with the tounges in, the TLT5′s ski great without them. Thanks again Fredrico these are the best touring boots ever! Brad Zeerip, Terrace BC

  67. Federico February 17th, 2011 2:46 am

    Thanks for the nice words, happy you like the TLT5… it was a pretty hazardous project at the beginning… a very few people 2 years ago, when we started, could have believed that a 1kg / 2bukles boots could have been working well for skiing and would have be succesfull also in north america.
    But finally the idea to give a real ski mountaineering boots to the ski mountaineers after so many years without one has been sucesfull.

    The additional tongue is called “additional” not for case… originally we even wanted to put in on the box or sold it separately but at the end the boots were looking nicer on the shelf with the tongue in so we leave it mounted ;-)
    Anyway the idea of that piece is to be used only in case of needs, more difficult descent, use with wide skis at speed etc.
    In normal condition, powder or not too fast skiing nobody needs that, especially on the performance. I personally used the tongue on my performance only the first 2 times…
    On the mountain most probably tongues are more needed, but also this depends on which kind of skis you’re using and which kind of boots you had before.
    In Italy 90% of the TLT5 mountain users don’t ski with the tongue as they use skinny skis and most of them had a F1 before.

    If you have other questions I’ll try to answer, to post on blogs now has become a nice coffe break or evening after work hobby ;-)

  68. Federico February 17th, 2011 2:56 am

    Scree, a “mechanism” to close the rear hole in way to keep the buckle closed without locking the cuff was an idea we had really from the beginning… I just checked with Mario and it’s on his developement priority list at number 17 …
    so it will still take some time before coming 8)

  69. Justin February 17th, 2011 3:12 am

    Federico – this is off topic, but I’m curious about the Titan Ultralight…. If the goal of that boot was to make a lighter Titan, why keep the interchangeable soles? It seems you could save a fair amount of weight if you just put an AT sole on them. I’ve never met anyone that actually changes the soles on Titans, Zzeuses, or Factors (granted, I only really know AT skiers, not many resort skiers…).

  70. Pierpaolo February 17th, 2011 7:06 am

    Do you think that the future will bring us a TLT5 evo, yust like the Dyna, without the Acti-Flex Zone? I can’t say if it’s a good innovation or not, since I haven’t tested the boots

  71. Lou February 17th, 2011 8:19 am

    Justin, the swap sole idea is indeed somewhat of a gimmick, like adjustable length ski poles that hardly anyone adjusts. Me thinks at least part of the reason for the soles is so boots can be sold that are ISO/DIN alpine certified for alpine use, which can’t be done with AT soles as they are made under a different ISO/DIN standard. In reality, with some grinder action and the right alpine binding (adjustable toe height and good AFD), just about any AT boot can be skied in an alpine binding, so I’ve always wondered about the hype and effort behind the swap soles. Oh, another reason for the alpine soles is they do have a more solid interface as they lack the soft rubber of the AT sole. Another reason for the swap soles might have just been marketing, as it seems like a cool feature. But I’ve already forgotten who was first with them…

    To me, the best thing about swap soles is if sole rubber gets worn out, resole of a boot is a simple bolt-on. They’re also nice for testing the tech fittings to destruction, since doing so doesn’t destroy an expensive boot (grin).

  72. Lou February 17th, 2011 8:25 am

    Everyone, when Fede says “coffee break” he means it. He got me addicted to espresso and making the perfect brew has consumed my life. That’s just normal in Italy, I guess. Never should have traveled down there, it corrupted me (grin).

    And yes, it’s been super interesting to commit to skiing TLT5P without the extra tongue (another part of Italian corruption). Quite impressive, due to the rigidity of the carbon cuff taking over service. Still, I wouldn’t mind having just a bit more of something progressive up front. Am thinking of some mods (grin).

  73. Darin February 17th, 2011 11:05 am

    Lou, I’m looking to upgrade my boots (zzeus) to something a little more uphill friendly since I am finding that is where my allegiances lie these days. What are the main differences between the Zzero C-TF and the TLT 5′s? aside from weight. (I’m probably looking at the “Mountain” version and I know you reviewed/are skiing the “Performance.”)

    Also what are people’s experiences regarding foot temperature, or rather more specifically, cold feet in the TLT 5′s? I know people say they’re great when you’re moving, but “don’t stop.” I don’t know about the rest of you but I have to stop every once in a while be it to adjust things or eat a bit of food, or just rest. Thanks!

  74. Plinko February 17th, 2011 12:31 pm

    Lots of great info here. Thanks Lou for the write up!

    Regarding temperature, I’ve worn them comfortably from 5 F to 45 F days. Proper boot fitting can severely impact this. First time out, before having them molded, my toes were ice cold just an hour into it. Once properly fit, it’s never been an issue.

  75. Lou February 17th, 2011 12:40 pm

    Darin, like I said in review, my TLT5P ended up warmer than my ZZeros… so most of that has to do with fit. That said, in the end if the foam in a given liner is thinner than another liner, and you allow room for your toes as well as the liner by not using too small a shell, the boot with the thicker liner will be warmer. Thus, the TLT5 could be colder than other boots, but I think that’s an exaggerated consideration.

    As for “why,” only two things cause me to use TLT5P over ZZero, those would be weight and cuff articulation. Everything else I like better about the ZZero. My ZZeros ski better than my TLT5Ps, and I like the rigid forefoot better than having the metatarsal articulation.

  76. Justin February 17th, 2011 1:14 pm

    Lou – I know you’re not into the fiddle factor of the removable tongues, but do you Zzeros ski better than the TLT5s even with the tongues in place?

  77. Lou February 17th, 2011 2:00 pm

    Um, having trouble remembering what the boot is like with the tongue (grin). But I’d say I still like the ZZero better on the down. Please realize that the metatarsal hinge makes the TLT give no matter what… for example. That said, comparing a carbon cuffed forefoot hinged race/recreation boot to ZZero is like trying to say which tastes better, an apple or an orange.

  78. Lou February 17th, 2011 7:25 pm

    For clarification and emphasis, I should add that as configured, my TLT5P boots are 13 ounces EACH lighter than my Green Machines. With the stock liner ther TLT5P would be a full POUND LIGHTER PER FOOT. That weight difference is totally noticeable and makes a turn earnin’ day really flow.

  79. Matthew February 18th, 2011 8:29 am

    Hey Federico… something you need to know about Americans… when we go on and on about little teeny things we want changed, it means we like it! Things we don’t like, we ignore. So when I tell you the lower buckle on the TLT5 is bad, it doesn’t mean the rest of the boot isn’t great. If you stopped making TLT5s tomorrow, and my choice was to ski in Factors or Megarides, I would happily pay $4000 for a pair of TLT5Ps on eBay. But I would still say the lower buckle needs improvement.

  80. Lou February 18th, 2011 10:46 am

    Matt, good point. As some of you might know, with the ocasional exception, here at Wildsnow we only review gear we like. But we do reviews, not worship (at least not always, grin), so we’ll pick things apart if we feel doing so is appropriate.

    Everyone should also bear in mind that we do “first looks” that are a bit less of a review and more of just plain info. And some of our blog posts are hybrid. I’d say the recent Tecnica post is a hybrid of review and first look.

  81. Darin February 18th, 2011 3:05 pm

    Does anyone have a comparison between the TLT 5′s and the Scarpa Maestrales? And Lou, did you ever do a review of the Maestrales? If so I can’t seem to find it.

  82. Lou February 18th, 2011 8:53 pm

    Darin, if you type Maestrale in the search box in the top bar left, um, you’ll get a very tiny amount of Maestrale info (grin).

    In all seriousness, I give at least three ways of finding information here, can you please share what caused you trouble? I really need some feedback so I can improve, but be it known that we worship at the alter of Google. If you can’t or won’t use search (either our dedicated, or Google with search operators (google it), you’ll never get the full benefit of WildSnow.com. We have way too much information to really go any other way (around 2,000 blog posts and a few hundred sub-pages.)

    Lou

  83. Lou February 18th, 2011 8:58 pm

    Been messing around with the TLT5 forward lean, which though I tweaked to be better is apparently still too much for me. I’m really thinking this boot was built with intention of using delta created by bindings such as Dynafit Speed. When using bindings such as Dynafit FT/ST, the resulting increased delta results in just too much forward lean for some folks (I’ve gotten feedback on this.) Solution for me is to either go back to using TLT speed, or place a shim under the binding toe of my FT/ST. I’ll try to get something done on this during the weekend and report back here. I like the boots, but the forward lean is just killing my knees and feeling really weird while I ski. Today, I was skiing crud and my foot heel actually felt like it was hovering above the boot insole while all the weight was on the ball of my foot. Yuck.

  84. tony February 18th, 2011 9:05 pm

    Lou, I have been using “Eliminator” foam tongue shims to succesfully reduce foward lean. Easy fix.

  85. Lou February 18th, 2011 9:34 pm

    Tony, due to use of Pro Tour liners with thick tongue, when I buckle the cuff I don’t have any room that can be taken up to bring my lower leg back farther. Eliminators would do nothing for me (in essence, I already have them with the thick Pro Tour tongue). While skiing, I can feel the back of the boot cuff almost all the time, so I’m definitely crammed back against it already. But thanks for thinking of me! I think the solution for me is to change the binding delta.

    I hope I’m not sounding to particular about this. Actually, less lean doesn’t bother me and can vary quite a bit before I start playing around with it. It’s just that when I get too far forward I get issues. Everyone has different needs in this area. In my opinion, Dynafit would have a better product if they’d produced it with less lean, but provided a shim/spoiler to increase it. Federico says they may have a lean increase kit available next fall. That really seems weird, must be for folks using bindings with no delta or something.

  86. Skian February 18th, 2011 10:51 pm

    Lou, i would agree. I use the low tech light binding with the tlt5 works great
    Also your increased forward lean could be due to the extra padding behind the calf in those after market liners:)

  87. Christian February 19th, 2011 4:27 am

    I am very surprised when I see that people want less forward lean – and even some skiing with the shoes non-locked. The lack of forward lean almost put me off buying these shoe. As dynafit reads this page I just want to say: please do not put less forward lean in your shoes!

    The reason I prefer more forward lean is that it enables me to influence the skis much more with fore/aft movement. Sure it is puts more strain on the legs as you have to ski with a deeper stance…but that is why training was invented wasn’t it? I think it helps when doing that microsecond tailkick before releaseing the turn and intiating a new with a lot of power on the foreski: a killer combination on hard terrrain. It also helps when powering through, or fine tuning balance to stay on top of, breakable crusts.

    I see that this is a highly individual issue influenced by technique, skis and skiing conditions – but as some think that the forward angle is to agressive, there is also quite a few that think it should be more agressive.
    (I ski with st bindings – click my name to see my genral skiing style…( I am the guy with the black jacket inbetween all the tele shots..and on the first video))

  88. Lou February 19th, 2011 7:55 am

    Oldschool: forward and back leverage.
    Newschool: tilt and enjoy

    One requires more lean, one perhaps less. That’s why there is no right answer and boots should have some method of adjustment.

    Skian, yes, I wrote at length in my review about influence of aftermarket liner and how I had to remold, verified with measurement to match stock liner. For me, even the boot with the stock liner has too much lean when used with ramp angle binding such as Dynafit ST/FT.

    The problem isn’t the lean, it is the difficulty of adjusting it one way or the other. Sure, it’s going to be perfect for Fede, great for others, too much for me, to little for others, and perfect for Skian. Too bad we can’t easily make it perfect for everyone. To you and Fede, instead of expending thousands of words defending a boot most of us like anyway, once in a while perhaps just make suggestions on how to deal with legitimate issues such as adjusting forward lean.

    And yes, Skian and all, ramp angle of binding is super important part in all this. We’ve covered that factor for years here, starting with helping folks deal with the old Fritschis that had negative ramp angle out of the box.

  89. Skian February 19th, 2011 9:20 am

    Ha:) I hear you too Lou. There have been several times in tight step narrow conditions i wish i could increase another two or three Degrees. I also sometimes on low angle will turn the heel on the low tech sideways which drops the heel lower to the deck of the ski and not on the riser. Sometimes i wish i was a little taller on lower angle terrain. Always a compromise one way or the other.
    Ramp angle is important and I am glad to see this subject discussed on Wild Snow. All these points are awesome notes. As Feddie states developing these needs is the design departments dream. Otherwise we would all still be in Denali’s (Hmm would that be great to do a comparison on the early denali review and look at the TLT5??) oh more work for Wild Snow…Remember all Italians have perfect feet…:) this was one of the gifts of god in Italy besides the Art of coffee). We are the deformed Red headed step child over here. I would love to see a capability to post a foot profile on Wild Snow?? Just askin?? Anyway Off to Keystone for Ace Kvales Slide show on Tuesday.. Did i send you the beta on that?

  90. Christian February 19th, 2011 10:07 am

    Tilt and enjoy is fine when it is soft, or with carved skis…but with straighter skis on windpack it is good to be able to combine old school/new school. As skis become straighter and straighter (my) technique will become more and more 70ish – I guess. ;-)
    Regarding the boot, I wasn’t really defending it: I want more angle. (But I still like it)

    Just a thought: Seems it would be quite simple to add a mechanism to move the backbinding up and down…thus changing the tilt. – but maybe it would be too become weak? And it would interfere with the breaks….

  91. Lou February 19th, 2011 11:18 am

    Christian and all, yes, of course, the techniques are combined. I’m hardly a master of it, but can feel it. Mainly, I simply do not need so much lean, and find it very uncomfortable. That’s me. If you want more lean, just stick a shim or spoiler in there and be done with it. Simple.

  92. Maki February 19th, 2011 11:31 am

    Maybe just making easily removable bars with holes in different position is the cheaper most effective solution. It’s years that people asks for this, I don’t know why they (all manufacturers) just don’t do it.

  93. Harry February 19th, 2011 3:46 pm

    All other factors being equal (ramp angle, technique, calf size, ect.) and leaving ego out of it, perhaps the stiffness of the boot is playing a role in your forward lean opinion?

    With a boot with a just right stiffness, the easeist way to increase the forward lean of the boot is to lean forward and articulate it. That also has the added benifit of preloading the boot with energy for transitions.

    If the boot is upright and too stiff, it will just lever the tip of the ski, rather than articulate into the position you want to be balanced in.

    A good example of this is the love hate relationship I have with the forward lean in my Titans. It is a very tempurature sensetive boot. In warm conditions (around 32F) I have it modded to be as upright as my race boots. I love them. Skiing when the temp is hovering around 0F, it is a completely different boot, so rock solid that I need to increase the forward lean just to stay over my skis in variable terrain.

    Ideally a less tempurature sensetive boot with a more alpine like progressive flex would solve that problem. The first 5-10 degrees of boot flex would be relativley compliant and allow preload of the boot, then continue the stiffness progression with an increasingly steep curve as it approached maximum articulation.

    Christian on a more practical note, aside from a softer boot, a two pronged approach to make a boot work for you would be a combination of boot board ramp angle adjustment to get your hee/ball of foot weight distrobution where you like it, combined with a spoiler. I think you’ll find that by playing with both you can use less extreme amounts of either to acheive your goals.

    On an alpine setup we would play around with the ramp on your binding also. Since we tend to make our touring binding choice based on feature rather than geometry, that option is not as open.

  94. ted February 19th, 2011 8:13 pm

    Harry- you seem very experienced with alignment issues and overall boot knowledge- what shop do you work at/own. As far as Dynafit ramp angle. I ski mine with a 1/4 inch shim under the toepiece, without which I feel like a total spaz.

  95. Lou February 19th, 2011 8:55 pm

    Ted, indeed, I’ve wished for years that they’d reduce the Dynafit FT/ST ramp a bit, it is really quite excessive. Works good when using a boot with minimal ramp, however…

  96. Christian February 19th, 2011 9:52 pm

    Thanks Harry,
    I have to consider your answer a bit more I think. This season I have done a lot of on-piste skiing using fis sl skis and stiff boots. The forward angle is more than on the rando-setup, but pretty normal. When switching to my mustagh atas and tlt5, I need to dial myself in – so I try to ski this equipment on slopes in between tours…not a lot, but some. What I find is that on the first turns I tend to over power the equipment…boot deforming etc…but I get dialed in quite quickly. When skiing steep and/or icy i like a deep stance…and I guess that is more of an issue than foot pressure..

    I don’t believe spoilers is a good option for AT. Used it for some dh/sg-races where it worked, but extra weight and the effect on walking comfort…makes IT a non-option for touring IMHO.

  97. Lou February 20th, 2011 7:35 am

    Christian, by “spoilers” I’d recommend fairly small ones, or even just something inserted between boot liner and shell to add thickness behind calf. When installed correctly such things work fine for touring with an AT boot.

  98. Christian February 20th, 2011 8:22 am

    Should be easy enough to try..so I guess I’ll do that. Thanks.

  99. Harry February 20th, 2011 8:41 am

    Lou-
    There is a possible solution to your increased forward lean caused by the thickness of intuition tour liner. I believe the outer face of the liner is the thick portion of the single density ultralon foam. I have had luck thinning out other parts of intuition style liners with an 80grit flapper wheel. You can remove and taper 5mm of the foam from the rear to return you to the stock forward lean. To prevent the now exposed foam from wear, I have used spare cambrelle from hottronics installation kits to prevent excess wear on the brittle foam, and create a more professional appearance. There is no reason you couldn’t use a different high wear fabric for the same purpose.

    Christian-

    I agree on your anti-spoiler bias. It is a tool that I use very rarely. Even ramp angle adjustments need to be used carefully with AT setups because they can have a deleterious effects on ones walking gait. You seem to be a somewhat rare bird in that you have a good deal of experience in choosing what setup already works for you, and a good awareness of what you stance is doing for you in different conditions.

    From you background I can assume you have a good mastery of race style technique and all that implies.

    I find your preference for a “deeper stance” (good description!) in less controlled conditions interesting in a positive way.

    There is a bias in the racing and the psia world against a lot of the technique seen with the freestyle world. The “gorilla” style of skiing. Often I have heard ex racers in the shop when we have a jib video on saying “yeah they can flip through the air, but most of them cant ski”

    Pop in a movie made two years later and the same little jibber is ripping a big mountain line that would cause me to change my pants. Still with a gorilla influenced stance. Clearly they can ski. They are using a more natural athletic stance.

    How those two opposing ideas of skiing are coming together and fusing is something I am trying to keep an eye on, especially as it applies to bootfitting and new equipment design.

    Your observation about overpowering your first few turns on your AT setup after skiing your stiff boots reminds me of a problem I can’t seem to overcome with my AT setup. When I start a descent after a skin, my first few turns I am always trying to drop my knee into a tele turn! It makes for some very awkward looking turns, frustration, then a conscious effort to get over my skis. It’s defiantly not a problem that can be fixed with alignment.

    Ted-
    I shim my dynafit’s 3mm under the toe also. I am reluctant to do that for customers, as I don’t know how important the angle of the rear pins into the boot is for consistent release. Is more of a liability/fear of the unknown for someones else’s knee thing than an objection to doing it.

    I don’t post my shop or URL because I have mixed feelings about posting on public forums as a professional. At a high level most “facts” are a matter of continuing debate and experimentation, but once written down can be read by some and then become dogma. “Well this (fill in authority) said this is so, so it is!” That authority could hold a different opinion later, but it is still out there with his name on it. At any given time I work with someone at my shop, I am using the best of my knowledge, but also trying to expand it. Stagnation is what causes shops and bootfitters to wither. Bootfitting is a collaborative process with other bootfitters, and few of the ideas and techniques I post were originated by me. If I put down a real identity I would feel more guilty if I didn’t also post attributions to those that I learned that technique from. I also didn’t post the shop I work at as one of the best on that thread. Clearly I think we are. Since none of my customers did nominate us, I will just have to work harder on it. Or send more of my customers to wildsnow.

  100. Lou February 20th, 2011 9:00 am

    Harrry, I was definitely thinking about doing that (thinning the liner). By molding aggressively I actually got the liner thickness nearly the same as the thinner stock liners. I was hesitant about thinning liner because the carbon fiber cuff is so hard and unyielding, it requires some give in the liner and thus some liner thickness. But yes, the boots still have too much forward for my taste. Or had. I built a new lean-lock plate and installed it yesterday. It tested out nice. Blog on that coming Monday. Took 4 hours and I went skiing after the mod so it wasn’t too bad. With better materials would have only taken a couple of hours.

    Thanks for your contributions here.

  101. Christian February 20th, 2011 3:03 pm

    (Off topic) The “Gorilla way of skiing” was the mantra that went through the Norwegian race community when I grew up and it influenced the 1971 class (Åmodt/Tjus etc) a lot. The “allround skier” was the ideal…and I guess it still is as Aksel Lund Svindal claims that Eirik Finseth (a freerider) is the best skier he knows…
    The thing I like about the gorilla stance/deeper stance is that it acts as a good shock absorber, and gives more rotational control. I like it especially for wide turns, but also for no-fall zones.

  102. Harry February 20th, 2011 3:36 pm

    I did not know there was an actual “gorilla way of skiing”. 1971 was way before my time and in another language. I doubt the people who used that term when I first heard it knew the origin either!

    It also plays into Lou’s observation that everything old is new again. Gorillla skiing, short skis, old garmont rental boots into Rando race boots…

    Also googling Eirik Finseth turns up both the freeskiier and a vice admiral in Norway’s navy.

  103. Zcott February 20th, 2011 3:53 pm

    Weighed today the TLT5 Mountain & Performance shells without liners (size 28):
    M = 937g
    P = 943g

  104. Christian February 21st, 2011 1:03 am

    (Corrections)
    Harry:
    I just used the gorilla term now – not sure where it originated…
    It was an American named Müller (or something like that) that went around teaching the benefits of deep and wide skiing in the 80?.
    1971 is birth year. There are still people in the alpine WC that are older than that. (e.g Patrik Järbyn – 42)…very impressive.

  105. Federico February 21st, 2011 6:17 am

    Lou, for your forward lean problem I would suggest to go back to the original liner. That boot was born to be used with exactly that kind of liners, or eventually other but with same cuff padding. Using a liner with thicker padding, especially with your SUPER skinny legs will move your forward lean position A LOT, 3-4mm more is really a lot in forward lean angle.
    I can understand you wanted a thicker padding on the foot to accommodate your skinny feet but this caused the forward lean problem.
    We can’t design boots thinking that after some consumers will use liners from other brands with different thicknesses.
    It’s a little bit fun… since the introduction of forward lean adjustable system with metal bar with two holes… garmont, scarpa, Dynafit zzero, titan etc… there has always been a huge request, especially from north American blogs to have only one position. A lot of negative comments were done on the classic system as it was hard to adjust it and so on…
    Of course now that a boot has only one position, very easy to use, everybody ask for adjustable position :-D
    Luckily the majority of the skiers are not so sensible and have no issues with the forward lean, I would say that for a good 90% it makes no difference.

    Lou a few post ago you recommended that we should develop new solution to solve the “problems” that are coming out here instead of trying to convince about how good a project is.
    I would just answer to this that we should look for solution that accommodate the majority of the skiers world wide not a few niche or just one country. This makes the difference from a successful brand to a non-successful brand. And luckily this is also what makes the TLT5 series the best selling touring boot of the season despite of its super high price point.
    The TLT5 performance was also able to be sold from ski running racers…. to freeriders … I think another pretty big success that since 1 year ago was totally un-thinkable.
    The risk of internet blogs is that a lot of non expert consumer, reading this huge discussions about little details, might think that the boot is not good and it needs huge mods to make it working. And this is not true as for the majority of the people it works perfectly.

    For the forward lean we will try to make available the new spoilers kit with the adjustability option for early next season as a spare part.
    If we assume that the actual position is ZERO the new adjustable spoiler with give TWO new position, the more rearward which will be -1mm (compared with the actual zero) and a more forward +2mm (compared with the actual zero).
    The measures I just gave are the difference on the hole position of the spoiler, this will turn in approximately the double on the top of the cuff. I mean the +2mm will be approx +4-5mm more forward and the -1 will be approximately 2mm less. Might sound just a few but in the reality it’s pretty much.
    I hope my explanation was clear, not easy with my bad English… sorry!!!

    Love ;-) … Fede

  106. Jonathan Shefftz February 21st, 2011 8:38 am

    Fede, for the “traditional” walk/ski switch with a hole in the metal slat, would be great if you could provide a slat *without* any hole as an accessory, then a hole can simply be drilled in a custom location.
    Regarding fore/aft balance in general, I would really like to see a picture of a skier in this so-called “goriall” stance who actually has his hips centered over his feet. (All too typically those who think they are in an “aggressive” stance because all their joints are so flexed are actually way in the back seat.) Plus excessive flexion just means you’re less (not more) able to absord terrain changes. Also, if you look at any good ski racer in the heart of the turn, the outside leg is actually very straight. (The inside leg is extremely flexed only to achieve parallel lower shafts because of the extreme angulation of the outside leg.)

  107. Lou February 21st, 2011 8:43 am

    Hi Fede,
    I appreciate your concerns and information, but even with the stock liner the boot had too much forward lean for my taste. (I actually re-molded the aftermarket liner and made it as thin as the stock liner.)

    Other posters have said the TLT5 lean is perfect, while still others want more, while others want less! To think my wanting less lean and modding for it is denigrating your product is just negative fantasy.

    As for blogs about mods denigrating your product, in my opinion you need to be very careful not to fall into that mental trap. Your taking it that way is pure and simple negativity. The glass is half full or half empty. You are seeing blogs about mods as being the glass half empty. In reality, only the best boots are worthy of the time and effort that modding and custom fitting requires. TLT5 has an amazing reputation and is indeed becoming quite the status symbol and desirable product. A website known for gear mods, writing about some mods to the Ferrari, does not denigrate the Ferrari.

    The irony of all this is that I regularly get accused by other companies of favoring Dynafit. Then I write about Dynafit mods, and get accused of risking your reputation with consumers. We have a saying: “damned if you do, damned if you don’t.” Basically, when I get two different sides of the equation accusing me of two different extremes, I have to figure I’m right in the middle where I should be. So sorry, I’ll keep writing about gear mods, including messing with Dynafit boots (grin)!

    And, I think your supplying a part to adjust forward lean is a very good idea. I’d heard some rumors about that some time ago, nice to see it verified. No reason a boot that good and expensive shouldn’t have some cool mods available from the manufacturer. After all, you can’t leave all the modding fun up to the bloggers!

    Along with the forward lean option, how about two different liners for your most popular sizes, a thick and a thin?

    Lou

  108. Christian February 21st, 2011 9:41 am

    I know you don’t want links to other sites..but here are some pictures:
    1. Shows Kjetil Andre Aamodt that I referred to
    http://g.api.no/obscura/pub/698x698r/00437/1107848396000_Kjetil_Andre_Aamodt_437643698x698r.jpg
    2. Tomba was an early adopter
    http://lafortaleza.iespana.es/AlbertoTomba.jpg

    The following video shows Aksel Lund Svindal and Jon Olsson( who is a great example of a crossover skier (i.e. jibbing&racing): Take a look at the position at 3:02
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb03Dy97IAs
    The beginning of this video is also a good example:
    http://www.vimeo.com/14506864
    Aksel (the guy in the yellow trousers have a wider and deeper stance than the rest…)
    Their boots aren’t super forward…but definetly not straight. The technique is also mainstream racing technique now… What I am taking about is just to ski a little deeper and little wider to get more stabillity on difficult terrain/high speeds. (Hope this cleared things up)
    (Two of me with gorilla attitude: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hilmersen/3399833682/ (actually I am stopping)
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hilmersen/3460504712/
    and one without
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hilmersen/3459656889/
    )

  109. Jonathan Shefftz February 21st, 2011 1:49 pm

    Those links are very helpful, thanks.
    Re stance width, we’re in agreement there, although hardly seems like a “gorilla” stance – that’s just the way human beings normally walk or play pretty much any other sport. The baseline is hip width, adjusted as appropriate for terrain and snow.
    Re flexion, the old Aamodt picture demonstrates a fairly straight outside leg. The inside leg is extremely flexed only so as to achieve parallel lower shafts given the extreme angulation.
    In the beginning of the vimeo link, Aksel (in the lead, with the yellow pants) is wonderfully well-balance and poised, but I wouldn’t call his stance deep at all, or even especially wide – it just seems that way only relatively to the other skiers (clients?) who are very narrow and upright, just passively locked in the backseat.
    The youtube link is the most interesting – at around 3:00 I kept clicking the pause/play button to achieve a kind of frame advance feature. The skier on the looker’s left has exactly the optimal degree of flexion. The skier on the right, well, maybe he’s just playing around for the camera, but his additional flexion can’t be doing anything for his skiing other than tiring him out more.
    Finally, Tomba, this may sound like a bit of a cop-out, but he’s definitely an anomaly. I’ve watched just one World Cup race in person, on March 23, 1991, and oddly enough the only effort required was driving two hours from my grad school dorm. (The last NE WC race!) As an NCAA alpine race coach, I should have been interested only in the finer points of technique, but I admit that many of us were eager to see Tomba given his celebrity chic. So I kept looking at the start list to remember his bib #, being sure to concentrate as he came by. Well, watching for his bib # ended up being pointless: he was immediately recognizable as his stance was so much more flexed than anyone else. Almost bizarre how much he stood out (or rather, crouched down). Whether he fast b/c of that or in spite of that, I don’t know.

  110. Frame February 21st, 2011 2:21 pm

    I hope Aksel LS didn’t damage those poor unsuspecting trees in the vimeo link, he seemed to take them like a slalom gate.

  111. Harry February 21st, 2011 2:47 pm

    When thinking about the forward lean of the boot, I think it is important to consider that angle as a maximum limit of how upright one can be at any point in a turn or transition. It is mechanicaly locking you forward because no boot likes flexing rearward.

    As far as how far forward you flex, the forward lean has no effect on how far you can go. That is determined by the range of motion in your ankle, and how much power you can put into the boot. The amount of power you can put into the boot is determined by how much force you can generate, which is in turn determined by your size, your tib/fib length which creates the leverage to use your mass to bend the boot, your speed ect. Sometimes snow conditions limit how much force you can generate. Water injected WC downhill snow….high limits. Bottomless powder at lower speeds…lower limits.

    It is hard for one boot to be perfect for everything, so we must find a compromise.

    Less built in forward lean allows for greater total range of motion and for more stance options.

    If you find you are never getting as upright as your boot does, shimming it with a spoiler can get you more instant response. I am not a fan of forcing your leg and your knee forward with hardware to achieve a stance.

    This goes back to the idea of having a boot with a relativly soft flex up top so that you can easily flex to your desired forward lean for given conditions and turn shape.

    If you take this idea too far though, the consequence is that we can have almost equally involved discussions about at what angle that flex should stiffen up.

    “Gorilla stil på ski” would be an awesome screen name.

  112. Kent February 21st, 2011 5:50 pm

    Federico,
    Thanks for taking your time to provide so much great input on our North American blogs and forums. And thanks, of course, for Dynafit’s great gear. I don’t mean to be presumptuous, but I’d like to share an observation of my Swedish wife’s, about us North American gear junkies. She thinks (and I’m inclined to agree) that many Americans seem to feel entitled to perfection, or at least the best that exists. They tend to spend huge amounts of time trying to find the perfect gear. Of course perfection is an individual thing and retail gear has to try and satisfy many people. So the great gear they end up with is never perfect. As a result, they tend to spend even more time trying to perfect it, or at least talking about potential improvements. As she sees it (and again I agree) Swedes don’t expect perfection. When they get good gear they just go ski with it. They tend to direct their efforts at learning how to use their skills to maximize its good characteristics and minimize the less desirable ones, instead of messing with that works well overall. I’m not an expert on Europeans, but I have the feeling that this might apply to many Europeans in general. I don’t think my wife will ever understand the fun that a lot of Americans have tweaking their gear. I understand it perfectly well, but as business and family demand more of my time I’m finding more value in the Swedish approach. I’d rather ski than tinker if I don’t have time for both. Cheers.

  113. Christian February 22nd, 2011 2:23 am

    Harry&Jonathan: I don’t thing we disagree…my first comment early, early in this thread a comulative reaction to comments in this thread and in other fora that was mentioned early on. I read that people ski with the zzero unlocked…and want a an even more upright shaft on the tlt5. The problem with that is that it is very hard to give a quick and forcefull loading of the backski, so you end up skiing using only the half potiential in the ski. On modern sl-skis this is less of a problem, as they are so turny…but on more narrow skis, it can be helpful to use this old technique.
    That the outer leg i stretched I also find quite natural – as the leg is much stronger like this.
    I tend to define my technique from my sl technique: it is really not very gorilla, as I my natural stance is quite narrow. The comments I usally get, is that I am very stable and controlled with an easy to spot rythmic skiing. For higher speed skiing legs tend to become wider, and the stance deeper.
    As for the tlt5 – the shaft is so stiff, that I am actually doing surprisingly well and prefer it to the zzero4c, even tough the forward lean is less.

  114. Lou February 22nd, 2011 7:45 am

    Kent, all I can say is enjoy the stuff we’ve tinkered with for the last 200 years (grin).

  115. Boz February 23rd, 2011 5:41 pm

    Well im going have to put my 2 bits in, As of last night im now the owner of a pair of tlt5p’s. I’ve none no modes to the boots, all I have done is a normal molding of the stock liners. When i moulded the liners i put toe caps on and under my normal ski sock i put a low ankle running sock to help give my foot a little extra room in them. Today i took them for a ski. I didn’t do any thing crazy, I put about 12km total on them today and around 1000m. To me they fit rather well. I was getting some soreness under my arch, more so on my right foot then left by nothing that crazy and i feel a few more days in them that they will naturally pack out and this will be no issue.

    As for actually skiing them, after the first 3 or 4 strides I was questioning how i was going to go back to skiing any other boot. On the up there amazing. I have skied in almost all other brands boots over the last 10 years, and nothing that i have skied in has that level of mobility and with zero resistance. And the weight on your feet needs no more talking about, there light.

    As for the down, I was again amazed. To call the conditions optimal would be an understatement, as it was knee deep light powder through some very nice open glades. In these conditions (i did all of this with out the tongues ) any boot would ski fine, but the tlt5 was no different. I did find that the change over was quick, and i also have now made a rando skin, with a pull tab on the front and no tail clip. this with the tlt5′s fast change made change overs fast, and since i was just YOYOing a short run it really added up in time savings after a few runs.

    When i was skiing down the ski out, on harder snow i did notice the forefoot flex area. i cant tell if its a nice dampening or not, i really didn’t seem to make much difference in performance but it was a bit of a strange feeling.

    Over all I have to say that I am more then amazed with my new boots.

    Some quick info about me.
    First I have a confession to make I have been touring for over 10 years, averaging around 65 days a year in the BC and today was my first time on dynafit bindings, along with my boots I bought some Vertical STs with no brakes. I must say after only one day i was wondering why i held out so long. Im now looking at Some movement Logic x’s for my spring Steep skiing ski.
    I mainly ski in BC coast mountains, as sated above i get out in the backcountry about 65 days a year. I prefer steeper ski descents and generally have a rather aggressive style. until today i always went with the heavier boots, like my BD factors. I think that I have matured some what now. Also I dont feel that the TLT5p’s are going to hold me back any.

  116. Boz February 23rd, 2011 5:41 pm

    Well im going have to put my 2 bits in, As of last night im now the owner of a pair of tlt5p’s. I’ve none no modes to the boots, all I have done is a normal molding of the stock liners. When i moulded the liners i put toe caps on and under my normal ski sock i put a low ankle running sock to help give my foot a little extra room in them. Today i took them for a ski. I didn’t do any thing crazy, I put about 12km total on them today and around 1000m. To me they fit rather well. I was getting some soreness under my arch, more so on my right foot then left by nothing that crazy and i feel a few more days in them that they will naturally pack out and this will be no issue.

    As for actually skiing them, after the first 3 or 4 strides I was questioning how i was going to go back to skiing any other boot. On the up there amazing. I have skied in almost all other brands boots over the last 10 years, and nothing that i have skied in has that level of mobility and with zero resistance. And the weight on your feet needs no more talking about, there light.

    As for the down, I was again amazed. To call the conditions optimal would be an understatement, as it was knee deep light powder through some very nice open glades. In these conditions (i did all of this with out the tongues ) any boot would ski fine, but the tlt5 was no different. I did find that the change over was quick, and i also have now made a rando skin, with a pull tab on the front and no tail clip. this with the tlt5′s fast change made change overs fast, and since i was just YOYOing a short run it really added up in time savings after a few runs.

    When i was skiing down the ski out, on harder snow i did notice the forefoot flex area. i cant tell if its a nice dampening or not, i really didn’t seem to make much difference in performance but it was a bit of a strange feeling.

    Over all I have to say that I am more then amazed with my new boots.

    Some quick info about me.
    First I have a confession to make I have been touring for over 10 years, averaging around 65 days a year in the BC and today was my first time on dynafit bindings, along with my boots I bought some Vertical STs with no brakes. I must say after only one day i was wondering why i held out so long. Im now looking at Some movement Logic x’s for my spring Steep skiing ski.
    I mainly ski in BC coast mountains, as sated above i get out in the backcountry about 65 days a year. I prefer steeper ski descents and generally have a rather aggressive style. until today i always went with the heavier boots, like my BD factors. I think that I have matured some what now. Also I dont feel that the TLT5p’s are going to hold me back any.

  117. MCI February 23rd, 2011 10:02 pm

    I normally do not read and/or post to blogs. Even though I’ve found this site quite informative for many things, it is strictly informed opinion based on individuals experiences and skill; which of course can vary wildly. So, for those of you who are considering purchasing this boot, here is my take on it and my opinion only.

    That said, I have read all of this post and feel like I also need to add my .02 worth on the TLT 5 Performance. I’ve skied on many boots in the last 25yrs, all backcountry and mostly randonee (with dynafit bindings only) including custom fit ZipFit, Garmont, Scarpa, Dynafit, Intuition, and Comformable liners in different boots. I’m a 14 AA foot and of Italian heritage so you can hold it against me that my long, narrow, and low volume foot fits well in these boots. In my mind fit and comfort is everything for long ascents so I think it is important to have a basic foot shape and size that is compatible with this shell. Of course that would hold true with any boot. I’m currently skiing the two widest Trab skis and the K2 Coomba. I’ve skied the boots about 15 days in a variety of conditions (boiler plate, corn, and powder) and logged about 60,000 ft. I am not a “hard core” skier, but I do enjoy a good downhill performing boot and I put in the miles.

    I feel like this boot is light (pun intended) years ahead of anything else. The range of motion for climbing is unsurpassed (even with the tongue in which is how I ski it all the time except for the longest of climbs), the lateral and fore/aft stiffness more than adequate, the overall lightness incredible, and the simplicity of entry and buckling very easy once you are accustomed to it. My most recent boot, 30.5 Radiums with Zip Fit liners is 4.5 pounds heavier than the TLT 5. Yes, the Radium is slightly warmer, has a more progressive flex, and is more comfortable in a cushy sort of way. But, the TLT 5 is about the same in performance, is less sweaty on warmer days or spring ski conditions, and is unequaled for weight savings. The buckles and lock mechanism are very clever and the sole rocker is excellent. With the tongue removed it is like climbing in a pair of light hikers! I’m not hard on equipment, so I expect the grilamid nylon shell to hold up fairly well even though it is thin compared to most pebax or polyurethane shells; time will tell.

    Because the liner is fairly thin, I think in most cases it is best to mold/modify the shell, instead of the liner, if additional changes are needed after thermal fitting the liner in the standard manner to achieve a good fit. This retains equal thickness and density of the liner which will provide for good circulation, comfort, and warmth of your feet. Of course there will be exceptions to this for individuals with abnormalities or difficult situations. It is very easy to modify the shape of the shell for any experienced boot fitter with the knowledge and correct tools.

    There has been a lot of discussion concerning the cuff lean angle. For me the cuff feels like it is a little more forward than my Radiums and works my legs a bit more because it requires a deeper stance. But, you know I think you just ski the things, get used to it, and adjust your stance accordingly. If an adjustable and reversible piece becomes available for this boot, I might like to try it and see if I can feel the difference.

    In my case I needed to modify the shaft cant because I have lower legs that curve considerably to the outside. I needed to cant the top of the cuff out about 3/4″ to 1″ at the top of the cuff. You can’t achieve this with standard cant rivets (in my opinion standard cant rivets on one side really just distort the cuff and don’t really tilt the cuff medially or laterally) so I had to custom make some cant rivets for both sides and modify some inner threaded inserts from some downhill boots so that one side could be offset in the shell and turned up on the inside rivet location and down on the outside rivet location. This made for a fairly radical change in the cuff cant angle which is what I needed for my legs. This required a good metal lathe, a milling machine, and the ability to chuck up and work with fairly small parts. I also then had to change the angle of the locking piece in the rear of the shell so that it would lock correctly and line up with the cuff properly when in the walk mode. I have a bit of an unusual situation and I’m sure that very, very few people would ever need to do this. I’ve never modified a boot this much but figured this is the one boot to do it on because of the precise and unforgiving fit of the cuff. I’ve never had skis ride so flat now that they are completed. That said, it would be nice if this boot had cuff alignment on both sides of the cuffs. But, I do see a real problem maintaining the alignment of the locking mechanism at the rear of the cuff as the cuff is canted.

    Frederico, it has been great the have someone with your design and manufacturing experience comment on this thread. This is really a great boot and so much better for long climbs than anything I’ve ever used. Nice job!

  118. Federico February 24th, 2011 3:35 am

    Lou… I was not accusing you to ruin our product reputation…or anything like that.
    You know… I’m still “”young”” and I’m from the internet generation … so I consider the web as a free space where everybody can say and write what he thinks.
    So as you write about modifying a lot the tlt5 I feel also free to comment about it saying that those kind of mods are not needed from 95% of the population and explaining the reasons behind certain choices.
    So my comments were not against you or what you did… they were just my interpretation of the mods.

    Thanks to everybody for the great comments! it’s amazing to read such nice words about the TLT5 P.

    Ciao

  119. Darin February 27th, 2011 10:37 pm

    So I feel obligated to give a short review from a lighter, non-freeride guy’s perspective since all I seem to find is people over 6′ in height skiing 180+cm skis. I’m 5’9″ 120lbs, and skied the TLT 5 Mountain w/169 Manaslus and ST bindings at a powdery resort day today. These boots are first off super comfortable, with my only addition being a set of superfeet insoles. These boots ski amazingly well and I can power through all sort of turns with ease. Deep powder, chopped-up powder, hard pack, crud, and even drops/jumps(nothing over 5′) were all handled without issue with the TLT 5′s. I skied harder and faster than I ever have with my Zzeus’. Contrary to some of the other reviews I’ve read, the flex felt very progressive and smooth. Really I think for a smaller person, these boots are near perfect. Warmth was never really an issue either. I made sure that I had a bit of room in the forefoot area and while my toes were at times cooler while sitting on the lift, they were never numb or cold. The walk mode was amazingly smooth and flexible, making for some really painless hikes. I have yet to test the tour mode, but am fairly well assured that it will be leaps and bounds beyond my Zzeus’. I will say that fiddling with the buckles, and mainly the top one at that, was a bit difficult while wearing ski gloves. Liners/bare hands solve that issue pretty simply. Larger folks may be able to overpower these boots, especially when using larger and longer skis, but for the smaller guy, these boots are pretty damn awesome.

  120. gonzoskijohnny March 2nd, 2011 11:10 am

    Lou, I skiied the TLT5 plastic (not carbon) version last weekned, and found it to be a great walker, and a quite stiff, but non-progressive flexer in ski mode.
    I only skiied it with the “exrta tounge” in, both for walking and for skiing:
    maybe a softer (modified with hacksaw?) tongue would be better for me…
    A question: how do you keep powder snow out of the boot without the tounge in?
    I found in 12-16″ soft snow, the areas between shell, toungue, and cuff were packing in (dry fluff snow in AM, then damp in PM) with enough snow so that it was a pain to buckle the boot up for descents. Had to pull cuff and tongue open to remove the snow before I could close buckles esp later in day…
    I Love your lean angle mod,, my issue was not enough lean when skiing with 10KG pack on…

  121. Bob March 2nd, 2011 11:30 am

    I have a question about sizing. Would it be correct to use the same size with these as on other Dynafit boots? I use Zzeus in 27.5 and they are a good fit for me, but on the slightly snug side of things. Would a TLT5 P in a 27.5 be the right choice for me? I am going to do long tours with them, not race. Thanks.

  122. tony March 2nd, 2011 11:43 am

    Bob,

    I am a 26.0 in the Titan and Zzero, but with considerable punching for length and width (at the sixth toe). I went with a 27.0 in the TLT5P because I heard it would be harder to punch than the other two boots. So far I am very pleased with the fit of the TLT5P.

  123. Darin March 2nd, 2011 2:09 pm

    I skied a 26.5 in the Zzeus’ but went with a 27.0 in the TLT 5′s in order to gain a bit more forefoot room. I figure with such a thin liner and shell it would be easier to fill space than to create it. No regrets so far.

  124. Dan Powers March 2nd, 2011 6:40 pm

    I’m seeing the stitching that connects the fabric to the plastic on the inner (non-removable) tongue start to unravel on one side. Any one else seeing this? I was thinking of superglueing it back on, any better suggestions?

    thanks

  125. Federico March 3rd, 2011 1:52 am

    Ciao Dan, unfortunately we had a very few of this inner tongue cracking. It’s not a seriouse problem for the boots performance but anyway fix them as you want, glue, tape or whatever and at the end of the season send them to salewa north america through your dealer and you will get a new pair of lower shells mounted on your cuffs and liners. Sorry, you’ve been one of the few unlucky with one of those pairs. Do you have a performance or a mountain? which size?

  126. Dan Powers March 3rd, 2011 9:19 am

    Fede – Thanks for the reply. Nothing is actually cracking, just the stitching unraveling, about 2cm back from the top. I have the the performance, in a 28.

  127. Federico March 3rd, 2011 9:24 am

    ah ops… ok … well a lot of noise for nothing… for that sticthin probably it was just a little mistake from the operator not fixing the end of it… just put one drop of super glue to stop the unraveling.
    Ciao

  128. Lou March 3rd, 2011 9:37 am

    Report from the trenches: I’ve now been in TLT5P for around 15 days of skiing, with quite a bit of hiking. The lack of weight and efficient stride dynamics are addictive drugs that we may need to start a new sobriety movement to cope with. While I still would prefer to not have the metatarsal sag while climbing, I did do a long flat slog the other day and the ergonomics of the metatarsal sag helped.

    Thus, I thank Fede for the nice boots, as well as the cup of espresso I’m sitting here drinking out of a demitasse cup. He got me addicted to both. Next winter, perhaps I’ll return to Montebelluna, where being addicted to TLT5 and espresso are considered normal.

    In detail, I’m not noticing any wear points of concern. Have not been using the add-on tongues and am okay with that, though I’m still thinking of some sort of tongue mod that would remove the faux tongue and attach the more beefy tongue permanently. Brian?

    Definitely don’t like fiddling with the velcro power strap. If I don’t mess with power strap, mode changes are fast and inspired me to go back to using a rando race style of mode change so I have more time at stops to eat chocolate while everyone else is fiddling. Or, perhaps even demonstrate there are no friends on a powder day.

    Biggest gripe at this point is pants cuff simply not working well over the buckle sticking out in touring mode. Also, if I use these boots for something like a peak scramble, I’m certain those buckles will be a problem as they catch on rocks and such.

    But again, overall, addictive.

  129. MCI March 3rd, 2011 11:09 am

    I can’t quite understand the issues mentioned by some about the removable tongues. I keep mine in all the time except for the longest of climbs (6-7,000 ft. or a lot of walking) and find them to not be a hassle at all. There is still a huge amount of articulation with them in place and they ski so much better on the down with them in place. I find that taking them out is not worth the fiddle factor. Try it with the tongues in place and you might like it.

    The metatarsal flex for me is noticeable and preferable for climbing. If you don’t think your boot is flexing, look down while climbing and pay attention to the shell movement underneath the front rivet
    with every stride. It’s subtle, but definitely there.

    The fit and style of this boot is so trim and compact compared to other boots that my regular ski pants actually fit loose over the TLT’s. The same pants fit much more snuggly over my other three and four buckle boots. The TLT’s are a much smaller diameter around the cuff even with the buckles fully open. Also, when climbing with my other four and three buckle boots I look down and see buckles sticking out everywhere in the climbing mode. In contrast, when I look down at the TLT’s there is hardly anything sticking out. The buckles actually stick out less than any other boot I’ve owned. Compare this to the photos of the Alien which look like a nightmare as far as external hardware to get snagged on things. It seems that these complaints are creating a problem before there actually is one! Just my $.02 worth.

  130. Lou March 3rd, 2011 2:12 pm

    MCI, thanks for the points, but I’ll guarantee the buckle on my TLT sticks out farther in touring mode than those on my ZZeros (ZZeros buckles area easily toured in closed position). Opinion on this is dependent on what boot you are comparing to, for sure, and I’m glad your TLT5 feels so trim and sleek at the cuff with buckle open. Mine do not.

    As for the tongue, sure, leave it in. But if a person is taking it in and out, then it’s a fiddle-f, no two ways about it. I’ve witnessed it — and experienced it. Watching people fiddle with the tongue when they could be eating chocolate is quite amusing. And I’ve already seen one of the tongue webbing loops lying in the snow at one of our uphilling areas, though have not seen an actual lost tongue yet (grin).

    The metatarsal sag might look good when you look down at it, but I’ll guarantee that it’s not helping you climb any faster, though it probably helps move along flat terrain a bit easier provided one is using skins with some glide that can take advantage of natural stride.

    Lou

  131. Christian March 3rd, 2011 2:58 pm

    For me the metatarsal flex is noticeable when booting, on flats and a little when downhill skiing. For it to be noticeable when downhill skiing the surface has to be hard…I notice it, but it is neither good nor bad. For booting I feel that it makes the boot less awkward on stones. I haven’t tried the tlt5 without the flex, so I might be wrong…

  132. MCI March 3rd, 2011 3:54 pm

    Lou,

    Yes, they work well for me and I really don’t mess with taking the tongues in and out a lot. They work great for me and this gives me more time to eat my pesto while everyone else is fiddling with their gear! Sometimes even have enough time to slice some Asiago on it. And, the first thing I did was remove the webbing loop; just another thing to get in the way.

  133. Graeme March 3rd, 2011 4:41 pm

    I’m still waiting on mine, for next season in Oz – but the removable tongue sounds ideal for me. Not intending to take it in/out every ski day or every climb, but I often base camp for a few days with skiing day trips looking for some steeper slopes – so tongue out for the days in and out from base camp, and tongue in for the days inbetween.

  134. David March 3rd, 2011 5:50 pm

    I gotta chime in as another tlt5p fan.

    I love the combination of light weight, huge range of motion and downhill performance. Is it the lightest boot? – no. Is it the burliest downhill? – no. Is it the best available combination – I think so for right now.

    Been skiing them for two months now, once or twice a week, everything from quick one hour 2000′ up and down to 8 hour+ excursions.
    Aside from some early blister issues when I messed with different footbeds I’ve had no issues so far – would still like a more supportive footbed but cant find an off the shelf one that doesn’t lift my foot too much so I’m making do with the stock piece of floppy foam.

    These boots are plenty stiff for me (5’11″; 155lbs, solid skier but not hucking) I haven’t used the optional tongues since the first week – don’t find any need for them. At room temp I can see the lower shell flex/deform around the ankle rivets, outside in colder temps it doesn’t (or isn’t noticeable).

    I use the liner velcro strap every time – I do it up when putting on the boots and undo it when taking them off – I don’t see it as something to futz with in transitions – i want it secure to help minimize movement when skinning.

    I find the velcro powerstrap makes a huge difference in downhill performance – if I were doing a fairly easy rando race I’d probably take it off but for everything else the few extra ounces and few extra seconds transition is worth it – it does restrict range of motion so I have it very loose for skinning.

    Re forward lean – its so personal – some days I think its not enough, some days I think its too much, ramp angle is different on my to sets of dynafit bindings so it feels different anyway – i happen to think by using intuitions Lou has increased lean beyond that which us in stock molded liners are experiencing (believe he measured molded intuition vs unmolded palau) – one boot certainly won’t please everyone in this regard but Federico please don’t go adding multiple positions and make boot less user friendly or heavier.

    As for cold – I was a bit concerned about it after ready others comments and molded with extra toe room and I have had no problems in temps hovering all day ~7F with windchill well below 0F. Don’t know if i would just stand around in em in cold weather but when moving its not a problem for me and I have chronic cold foot problems in every alpine boot I’ve ever owned.

    _____________
    A very happy tlt5 p owner!!!!

  135. Greg Louie March 3rd, 2011 6:17 pm

    Come on, Lou, don’t you have a sewing machine?

    http://www.randosaigai.com/pantmod_4788.jpg

  136. Lou March 3rd, 2011 7:02 pm

    David, good stuff but please, I spent hours figuring out the forward lean and it was too much even with the stock liner. We all like the boot. Ok?

  137. Lou March 3rd, 2011 7:06 pm

    Greg, indeed, I need to get on it! After all, we’ve got three sewing machines kicking around here (grin).

  138. Lou March 3rd, 2011 7:07 pm

    Pesto, presto!

  139. Federico March 4th, 2011 2:04 am

    :-) … I’m so surprised for how many persons the removable tongue is something they get crazy about… one little thing… it’s an optional “toy” … so you’re alowed to use it if you want, alowed to leave it on your garage if you don’t need it and also leave it on for climbing if you feel that a 5 seconds operation to insert it on top is a problem ;-)
    This makes me a little laughing as when people complains about the fact that the dynafit bindings can’t go from ski to walk mode without releasing the toe… We’ll if that’s the price to save 1kg each foot I’ll pay it :-)
    Same is for the tongue, if you want the best downhill performance to weight ration possible you use it, if not don’t use it.

    I’ve been skiing 2 years with the TLT5 P without the tongue as I was sure for my poor skiing ability was more than enough… but since the last month I took one pair of Manaslu ski from the warehouse … and started to ski on that with TLT5P and with the additional tongue… well I think after this experience I will always bring the tongues with me….this new setup improved my downhill peroformance by 50% …

    The operation of adding tongue and closign boot requires, if you know how to do it still half of the time than closing a 4 buckle boot with traditional ski walk mechanism and can be done while eting chocolate or drinking hot coffe (if you like to :roll: ) …

    So … use if you like and don’t use if you dont… but don’t complain about such a cool feature that by they way is one of the seecret of the success of this boot line … even if I think 60% of skiers is not using them all times.

  140. Federico March 4th, 2011 2:07 am

    Lou as regards espresso coffee I recoment you to buy the new illy iper espresso machine… quite in-expensive a couple of hundreds euro in Italy and the tablets costs approx 0,35€ … i bought one a few months ago… it makes really an amazing coffee … better than most of Italians bar…
    Not sure if it’s available in the US … if yes it will surely save you from your espresso addiction… or make it worse :D

  141. Christian March 4th, 2011 2:16 am

    Love the toungue. Probably wouldn’t have bought the boots if it weren’t for them. The only time I don’t use them is when it is so cold that my coordination is getting bad, or when it is very windy, and I am afraid they will blow away. As Fredrico says, it only takes 5 seconds to put them in – or 15 if I mess things up. Mostly I try to tour in conditions where I can enjoy the summit a bit more…and then it does not matter at all – I even sometimes take my skis of to remove the skins, walk around and take some photograhps or just enjoy the scenery… Totaly unacceptable, I am sure…as that kind of behavior totaly kills transition time ;-)

  142. Skian March 4th, 2011 8:51 am

    http://www.buycheapr.com/us/result.jsp?ga=us9&q=c190+nespresso

    I think the c190 or D290 is all you need. I have had a 190 for 8 years every day i’m home that thing gets hit at least 4-6 times. Paid for itself in six months. And the pods land on the doorstep every two weeks.

  143. Greg Louie March 4th, 2011 10:10 am

    Well, I run on espresso when I’m home doing TLT 5 mods.

    Federico and Skian, how do the Nespresso and iperEspresso systems compare? I’m familiar with the Nestle machines as my brother-in-law works at Nestle, and familiar with Illy whole bean coffee, but haven’t seen their machine (available for $175 in the US, BTW) . . .

    http://www.illyusa.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subcat_home-delivery_home-delivery_iperespresso-membership-x8

  144. Lou March 4th, 2011 10:50 am

    WildSnow.com would cease to exist if it wasn’t for espresso.

    Funny thing is, I go totally off caffine for long periods, then visit Europe, and I’m back to the addiction.

    Been having fun just using the low-tech stovetop maker. But a machine would be interesting. Probably better I stay low-tech, as I’ll probably go off the stuff again at some point. Depends on blood pressure, which I deal with on occasion though usually totally normal due to exercise and lower salt intake.

  145. Skian March 4th, 2011 11:18 am

    Greg?? you have a bro at Nestle! Can you get me a pro-form? Enough about you what about me? Ive been an espresso guy for 20 years. Have you seen images of me? My favorite saying is Spro and go. I can send a bio if needed. Unless he has heard of my espresso exploits. They are very well published.
    On a more serious note. I’m Scottish (AKA thrifty). you can get a great Nespresso machine on ebay and that was the two machines I listed. Never fail for perfect shots. It works so well i usually do 2 or 3 just for good measure. I even bought a 2000 watt converter for the truck so the machine is never far from the trail head. Caffe Lungo is so 80′s.

  146. Dave J March 4th, 2011 11:27 am

    Wow, for guys that seem sooooo particular about their ski kit, I’m surprised at least some of that doesn’t transfer over to their coffee.

    Pods?!?…. seriously? How can you guys steer Lou that wrong?

    Just find a good local roaster, get your beans fresh, grind them right, and brew with one of these:

    http://www.sweetmarias.com/aeropress/aeropress_instructions.php

    I guarantee, this will produce the best ‘espresso-like’ brew, short of a commercial grade espresso machine/grinder combo.

  147. Skian March 4th, 2011 11:36 am

    Dave, let’s start from the beginning
    1. I start early… sometimes 4 am Not too many roasters on my calendar
    2. I’m into speed touring …Also speed drinking…Pods are clean and quick and all i have to do is open the tailgate spro and go.
    3. Some of the best most consistent espresso comes from my machine.
    4. i travel 40,000 miles a year in a truck and in metro areas espresso is easy. Ever tried to get an espresso in Price Utah or Beaver? Not happening But if your parked next to me on Teton pass at 4 am you might enjoy a little kick. :)

  148. Federico March 4th, 2011 12:39 pm

    Greg, yeha that’s the machine I meant! … trust me the quality of the coffe is not comparable with the nespresso!!! I love it!…. and prefer the black coffe capusle ;-)
    Ian … trust the Italian’s on espresso :P

  149. Federico March 4th, 2011 12:42 pm

    I traveled in most of the world and I’ve been many times in the states as well… and I’ve never been able to drink a decent (for my tastes) espresso… never…
    So when I tell you that the illy iper-espresso machine does great espresso trust me… it’s over the average of many Italian coffe bars..

  150. Justin March 4th, 2011 12:54 pm

    a couple questions/comments…. Maybe this has been covered somewhere, but why no metatarsal flex in the Evos for next year? It seems they are better suited for the race boot and the light touring boot (TLT5)?

    Havent heard much about next years carbon Green Machine. Is it significantly stiffer than the old ones?

    For the Titan Ultralight, I’ve read various conflicting reports about where the weight savings is coming from, liner vs shell. I think somewhere along the line Federico said its almost all from the shell changes, but other info has suggested differently. Anyone know more about this?

    Yes, I do have questions on all boots from the ultraburly to the ultralight…

  151. Greg Louie March 4th, 2011 1:45 pm

    Do I sense a theme here? Amped up espresso heads on Dynafit?

    BTW, Nestle employees get the machines dirt cheap, but they have to pay full price for the pods! (Well, maybe 10% off at the company store in Montreaux).

  152. Skian March 4th, 2011 1:49 pm

    Greg, quit rubbing it in.

  153. Lou March 4th, 2011 5:11 pm

    Justin, to answer your question about why no metatarsal sag. The take I heard is that racers want weight reduction, and have found the metatarsal sag to not be important to their times, but that it just adds unnecessary weight.

    New Green Machine is probably not ‘significantly’ stiffer, but is definitely stiffer from what I’ve seen in person. Thing is, my original style Green Machines are plenty stiff, so whatever… if you want something stiffer then there you go, get the new ones this fall when they come out.

    Pre-production Titan Ultralight I saw was hard to read. I don’t remember the official take on weight savings in liner vs. shell.

    Federico?

  154. Skian March 4th, 2011 6:33 pm

    IMO the new “Green machine” is the most under rated boot coming out from Dynafit next season. We are entering a new era of ski mountaineering in North America and that boot leads the way with some others. Light insulating comfortable stiff , walkable. There is a category emerging and the green machine and a select few boots meet that category. Great articulation and power to back it. Would I ski the Gene Simmons with it?? I doubt it.
    We are pushing the limits in many markets in the US. I even have a set of Faction Gene Simmons ski’s coming just to check it out. Gene’s ski only comes in one size, MAN. Yes that might be a TGR thread but there is an equal category emerging.
    Speed touring and Speed Mountaineering
    It’s not race it’s people hungry for vert and lots of it. No glades no big open bowls. Speed touring is 6 pounds per leg. Ski, boot, binding, skin. You can get that in a TLT5 or close with a green machine.
    Everything you put on your feet is a compromise one way or the other.
    The Green Machine is the one boot in Dynafits lineup that still has me salivating, and I get to ski a lot of boots.

  155. Lou March 4th, 2011 7:40 pm

    Green Machine has been my go-to boot for years now. The new one is no doubt a bit stiffer and I hope lighter. Looking forward to it but I’m amazed at what I’m doing in my TLT5Ps…

  156. Skian March 4th, 2011 7:45 pm

    After ten long belays, and multiple BC pits this year in winter. I’m looking forward to the Green’s. But for the quick and fast the TLT5′s the go to.

  157. SkiBumNP March 11th, 2011 1:21 am

    Hey Lew,
    What do you know about modifying the TLT5 with the carbon upper?
    I have someone who wants some boot work done on his TLT5s
    do you know if there is any way to press the boor out?
    can I heat the Carbon upper to modify it?
    I want to do a medial punch on the ankle and
    move the lower buckle back to make it more like
    a Dalbello.
    If you have any beta i would appreciate the advice.

    -GW-

  158. SkiBumNP March 11th, 2011 1:22 am

    Lew = Lou

    sorry – late night.

  159. Lou March 11th, 2011 7:09 am

    SkiBum, indeed, were you dreaming (grin)? A super technician might be able to heat mold the carbon upper, but not a mere mortal as far as I know. Doing so would require precise heating of the resins, and could easily (and probably) destroy the carbon fiber laminate. (If I’m wrong, great, have at it.)

    As for removing the upper cuff from the boot, I’m sure any boot fitter could do that, but the question is would they have the correct sized fasteners to replace?

    The Grilamid nylon lower can be heat molded (it’s just a stiffer nylon than Pebax) but of course care is in order as the plastic is quite thin. I didn’t do any heat molding on mine because I didn’t want to deal with the metatarsal hinge area, and that’s where I would have done much of my work. Instead, I went to a bigger shell and an aftermarket liner to fill it up.

    I actually could use a punch over my outside left ankle joint bone, but opted not to do so because it would have required removing the cuff and I don’t have the correct size screw rivets to replace the stock ones.

    One other thing: Examine the inside of the cuff rivets. Mine were not flattened correctly and one was digging into my ankle until I applied my ANSI approved hammer.

  160. Skian March 11th, 2011 9:21 am

    Working with Grilamid I would use the old school method of Boiling the boot. Much more of a consistent heat. Using a rice cooker works well . Heating with a gun is dicey. You need to be a pro. Not saying it’s not doable but fine line between melting and manipulation. The boots will push up to a size in areas. As for carbon… leave it alone you’ll only cause problems in integrity as Lou stated. After pushing anything I would let it cool at room temp overnight. Don’t shock it with water or snow to speed it up. Pushing in the first and firth met?? All I can say is know what your doing or hire a pro. It’s your $1000.00. I’m a mechanic, I build motors and tear motors down regularly. But if i ever owned a Ferrari i would leave it to the dealership. Time is money, money is time… Look for a top shop in one of Wild Snows previous blogs for the valve adjustments and cylinder honing. Change the plugs and oil on your own. That’s my suggestion.
    Skian

  161. Lou March 11th, 2011 10:28 am

    Skian, I’ve always been leery of the boiling method. Perhaps because at the altitude of Aspen where I used to mess around with that stuff, water boils at a significantly lower temperature and perhaps doesn’t apply enough heat. Also, immersing and softening nearly the whole boot seems like a good way to mess up the tech fitting alignment. My method is to use a heat gun and an infrared thermometer, along with shielding of areas I don’t want to heat. I also pre-heat the boot punching mandrels in my convection oven to around 275 f, and that seems to really help. I think a lot of the problems associated with heat gun boot customization are caused by the big aluminum mandrels sucking up heat, and thus requiring the mechanic to endlessly heat the boot and thus enlarge the heated area or heat too hot.

  162. Skian March 11th, 2011 10:42 am

    Lou, I would agree with you in theory, I never push a dynafit or tech fitting boot s unless in a jig or a binding. I don’t care if it is PU either. Most PU freeride boots have little material under the arch and will twist at that point messing with your pin insert alignment. Cut a cross section of a plug or Alpine boot and then a PU or Pebax freeride touring boot. Grilamid is way thinner than PU and also PBAX. most peoples understanding of shielding with foil is limited. Water bathing creates a uniform heat around the area. Also depends on the push and where. This is why i recommend boiling if you need to do this work. You have hundreds maybe thousands of hours on the bench a do-it yourselfer for their own boots not so much.
    I guess you could boil… heat if necessary carefully with a gun push slowly in a jig and let set overnight. That IMO will have the best results. You fortunate few who live at 10,000 have your own issues with manipulation. :)
    Remember the difference in one siize is not much more than a few mills.

  163. Dawes Wilson April 19th, 2011 5:47 pm

    Lou, I just had my first ski in TLTP5 and I agree that they have a bit too much forward lean (cuff angle) for my tastes. I own old F-1′s and zZero’s and I modified both of those to be more upright. To the zZero’s, I added another hole to the ski/walk device so that I now have three settings. This has allowed me to experiment with different cuff angles in different conditions. The summary of the results from those experiments is simple, soft snow-more upright, hard snow-greater cuff angle. Racing on the F-1′s, I found the more upright stance caused dramatically less thigh burn than the standard setting in all types of snow. (I should amend that “all” to most. I race in CO so haven’t had to deal with true Eastern hard snow.) I would like to hear if anybody has successfully reduced the cuff angle on the TLTP5. I have some ideas of how it could be done without machining a new lower spoiler part, though I think I could do that too. I waited a long time for these boots and I am pleased so far. I am hoping to be able to tour and race in the same boots until I can find a pair of truly super light all carbon boots that can fit an American forefoot disfigured by approximately 6000 days of skiing.

  164. Lou April 19th, 2011 6:21 pm

    Dawes, I made a new lean-lock plate for mine so I’d have less lean, but it was way too much work.

    http://www.wildsnow.com/4534/tlt5-lean-lock-mod/

    Next year they’re going to have some sort of system that’ll give optional lean angles, one that’s less.

    Now that I’ve skied in the boots a bunch, I think another thing that contributes to what some of us feel is too much cuff angle, is the fact that as the metatarsal bend collapses, that causes the cuff to jack forward another degree or two.

    Till next year, you could reduce the lean a bit by shaving foam off the rear of your liner cuff, but that’s pretty extreme… you could also shim up the toe of your binding and see if that gave you the kind of ergonomics you’re after.

  165. Peter R April 24th, 2011 8:18 pm

    Lou,

    I’ve spent many hours on the internet, trying to find the exact difference between the Dynafit TLT5 P and the TLT5 M. Maybe I’m missing something, but the only real difference I can find, through the MEC catalogue, is $145 more for the Performance, for a 20 gm savings over the Mountain.

    I realize that there might be some slight stiffness difference between the two models, but I can’t find a comparison review anywhere. Maybe you and/or Federico could write a few words on this.

    Also, Federico, you must understand that North Americans are inventors and tinkers by nature. Give an American man a watch and he’ll likely take it apart, just to see what makes it tick and then try to put it back together with “improvements”. It’s in our DNA.

    Lastly… We strive for perfection, even if it’s not attainable. That’s why we buy BMW’s or Maserati’s or Dynafit’s and then try to “fix” them.

    No offense directed or intended Lou. :-)

    Peter

  166. Lou April 25th, 2011 7:15 am

    Funny thing is, it was an Austrian tinkerer who started this whole lightweight Dynafit thing…But guess what? The inventor got some of his ideas from the Ramer binding, which as American as you can get — but in turn Ramer inventor got some of his ideas from Europe… It goes on and on.

    But we Americanos have not stood still!

    As far as the difference between the carbon cuffed TLT5 and the one without carbon, personally, I really notice a difference in stiffness and support, and slightly less weight. But I don’t think it’s a big deal. One thing I should share, is that in my case, now that the boots are broken in and have maximum movement at metatarsal bend, I’m really noticing the sag of that area in downhill mode and am considering placing a shim on the ski under the ball of my foot, or riveting the cuff so it doesn’t move in that area. When they make this same type of boot without the “hinge” in my opinion it’ll be way better. But don’t get me wrong, I like the TLT5 and it’s been my go-to boot for about 40 days of skiing as of yesterday.

  167. Jonathan Shefftz April 25th, 2011 7:18 am

    The liners are also totally different. (Although in Europe, the TLT5 Mountain is available with either liner.) Supposedly the shells are the same weight, or even slightly lighter for the Mountain.

  168. Lou April 25th, 2011 7:21 am

    Jonathan, hmmm, can you get by a shop and weigh both shells for us? In EU they told me the carbon shell was lighter, so I was making that dangerous assumption (grin).

    As for liners, thanks for pointing that out. We don’t pay much attention to OEM liners around here, as many of you know…

  169. Dave Cramer April 25th, 2011 7:41 am

    Size 26.0 TLT Mountain Shells = 1.884 pounds each on my scale… Jonathan has the same size Performance so we could get some sort of comparison, although with different scales…

  170. Lou April 25th, 2011 7:51 am

    You can check calibration of your scale with 20 good condition nickles, 100 grams. If your scale passes that test, it’s good enough for boot shell comparo…

  171. Jonathan Shefftz April 25th, 2011 9:03 am

    But how do I account for all the parking lot mud?

  172. Lou April 25th, 2011 9:10 am

    Good question!

  173. Dave Cramer April 25th, 2011 9:17 am

    Let’s see… my boots have Mt. Snow parking lot mud (now dried to sand) from April 17 (I was too lazy to ski in the rain this Saturday).

  174. Jonathan Shefftz April 25th, 2011 9:24 am

    My Mt Snow parking lot mud is from Apr 16, 19, 22 — so should be comparable!
    Skipped Sat on account of rain, and went on a family hike yesterday, complete with training ballast (i.e., toddler strapped to chest, when she wasn’t friction climbing on this really cool boulder at the summit). Radar map looks like possible clearing later day…

  175. Gentle Sasquatch April 25th, 2011 10:17 am

    My brief relationship with TLT5 has been indeed epic. I have semi flat feet. I had to have them blown wider 2 times before I could keep the boots on my feet all day. I have to keep the lower buckle on the lowest tightness otherwise I get cramped. The stiffening tongue has not been necessary so far. Actually I’m not sure whether the last issue with the boots had to do with the stiff tongue or the tighter lower buckle but I have been skiing them without the tongue ever since. They ski well although I feel the same ‘high heel’ tiptooeing as he did. I have not figured out yet what to do with this but the season is just about done. We’ll see next winter.

  176. Lou April 25th, 2011 10:21 am

    Gentle, consider moving that lower buckle rearward a bit, so it tightens more at your instep… As for that wonderful tiptoe feeling, by next winter we’ll have a variety of ways to correct that.

    Lou

  177. Gentle Sasquatch April 25th, 2011 10:37 am

    I can’t wait to see what you guys cook up for the fix. I’ll be the first in line :-) Thanks!

  178. Lou April 25th, 2011 10:59 am

    It’s Dynafit who is said to be coming up with the lean fix. Probably just a swap for the vertical plastic piece that holds the alu plate, or perhaps a different alu plate a boot fitter rivets in to replace the stock one. A boot that expensive, seems like that’s the least they can do for loyal customers…

  179. Gentle Sasquatch April 25th, 2011 5:20 pm

    The top rear cuff rests on these 2 ‘ribs’ on the bottom rear piece. Would it be possible to flex the top pieceso that it slides over the first rib and landed on the second rib? That would give a few inches … I hope I am making sense here. I am just typing this on my cell and do not have my boots in hand at the moment.

  180. Jason Gregg April 26th, 2011 5:46 pm

    Can anyone one tell me the bsl on the TLT5 in 28.0

  181. Jason Gregg April 26th, 2011 5:51 pm

    nevermind it’s 307mm… visible in one of the photos here.

  182. Jonathan Shefftz April 26th, 2011 8:43 pm

    This afternoon’s Mount Snow parking lot mud is mainly scraped/brushed off, so a pair of TLT5 Performance shells, size 26.0/26.5, no liners, no tongues, but with power straps and pretty much all the original rubber (only one tour with on-snow travel so far), 3lb 12.6 oz.
    If I’m doing the math correctly, Dave says 3 lb 12.3 ounces for his “Mountain” shells . . . but w/ or w/o the tongues?

  183. Dave Cramer April 26th, 2011 9:17 pm

    Without tongues. Interesting that the weight seems exactly the same. My liners weigh 604g for the pair, or 1 lb 5.3 oz.

  184. Jonathan Shefftz April 27th, 2011 10:08 am

    My liners, w/o footbeds (but with lots of sweat residue!) are 10.8 per pair.
    So that pretty much perfectly accounts for the spec weight differential between the cf & pbx versions.

  185. ewa April 27th, 2011 1:16 pm

    I have TLT5 M size 26.5, with a lighter liner (TF). The weight of a pair is around 300 g or 10.6 oz (the scale is not too accurate). Anyway, I know it is the same shell used in Performance boot. As Jonathan said, here in Europe we have a choice: TLT5 Mountain boot with a lighter TF liner or with a heavier TFX one (cheaper version).

  186. Federico April 28th, 2011 2:04 am

    The weight of the shells without liners of TLT5 mountain and Performance is nearly identical… I’m not sure which one is a few grams heavier… but really something like 10gr.
    The difference is not on the weight but on the downhill performance, clearly a huge difference.

  187. Lou April 28th, 2011 5:55 am

    The idea being, the carbon cuff weighs about the same as TLT5-M plastic, but is a world stiffer. In my opinion it makes a big difference just as Federico says.

    Thus, more performance for a given weight.

  188. Dan June 23rd, 2011 2:39 pm

    Can anybody help me?
    I will be bying a new BC set-up for next winter. I have already decided on the skis and bindings – Dynafit Stoke 173 cm and Dynafit Radical bindings.
    I am undecided on the boots. Which of the following boots you think is the stifest: Dynafit TLT5 Performance, Dynafit ZZERO4 TF or the Black Diamond Prime.
    Thanks for your help.

  189. Christian June 23rd, 2011 2:49 pm

    I have the tlt5p now, and had the zzero4 tf last year. I see no reason to choose the zzero4 other than price.
    The BD boots I have tried does not fit my foot, so I guess if you have a BD foot the prime is the best choice, and dynafit if you have a dynafit boot.

  190. Dan June 23rd, 2011 3:12 pm

    Christian,
    What is the difference between the Dynafit foot and the Black Diamonf foot. I have a pair of Factors and they fit OK. I never had any Dynafit boots.

  191. Christian June 23rd, 2011 3:16 pm

    Dan, I am sorry to say that I do not know. But, 28,5 BD were too short for me. (I use 28,5 dynafit). They also seemed somewhat wider…but I have only tried the Factors in-store, and they did not seem to fit.

  192. Greg Louie June 23rd, 2011 7:16 pm

    Dan, if you mean which boot seems to offer the most resistance to forward flex from a neutral position (at least in the shop), I think the TLT 5P with the tongue in and everything buckled tight might win, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to feeling the most secure/offering the most control while skiing. I suspect the Zzero 4 might win that one. The sensation of “control” involves a lot of other factors like dampness, integrity of construction, and yes, weight.

    Regarding the fit, the Dynafit last is typically narrower in the toe box, lower volume, and tighter through the instep. While the BD boots fit me very well out of the box, I opted to get the TLT 5 and “made” it work – and am very happy with the result.

  193. Christian June 24th, 2011 4:46 am

    Both the tlt5p and the zzero4c are very capable shoes. I think the zzero4 might have an edge in forward flex, but to me they felt more on/off. Backwards and sideways the tlt5p feels stiffer. When pushed very hard forward on e.g. ice the lower boot on the tlt5 collapsess more I think – but it is no problem…only happens when comming from skiing race/plug(?) boots and skiing white ice, so not really a problem.
    I have the non-tf zzero4c, and I believe the tf version is a little stiffer

  194. Dan June 24th, 2011 2:57 pm

    Thanks for your help guys.

  195. Justin September 21st, 2011 9:51 pm

    Lou – somewhere along the way you mentioned trying to rivet the pseudo-bellows, or something like that to stop the flex while skiing. Did you ever try that? What about using the Scarpa shims for the F1 and NTN boots? Does that flex significantly detract from their skiing performance?

  196. Federico September 22nd, 2011 1:30 am

    Justin, the flex zone on the lower shell will not detract anything from the skiing performance. it’s an influence of 1% and 95% of the skiers can’t feel that in real. it’s mainly a psycological issue ;-).

    some of the best skiers in the world used and loved the tlt5 last winter.

    Ciao

  197. Lou September 22nd, 2011 5:47 am

    Justin, I agree with Federico that the flex does not “significantly” detract from downhill skiing performance. Also, I loved the TLT5 so hopefully that put me in a certain class of skiers which Fede mentioned (grin).

    In all seriousness, yes, if you place a shim under the flex zone of the TLT5 it does stiffen up the feel of the boot a bit. For some that might improved the way it skis, it did for me, but it’s neither a necessary or huge improvement.

    My position as always is that the flex zone is unnecessary and the boot would ski downhill slightly better without it, and be slightly lighter (not to mention easier to manufacture and perhaps slightly less costly). On the other hand, sometimes the slight bit of flex lends comfort to the boot, for example, when using the boot for walking or when ski touring on lengthy sections of low-angled terrain with glide friendly skins. Like when I did the Toffana with Fede last winter, we started low and had to do a long slog up a snowmobile cat-track. Having a metatarsal bend boot and glide friendly boot made that go a little better than otherwise for Fede, while I felt the drag of my heavier, rigid Zzeros. Once we were skiing down from the summit, however, in mank and breakable, I was glad to have everything I had, though I would have made it down with my TLT5s as well.

    As for my plans for mods, rivets and that sort stuff, I used up most of my mod energy and time making my new lean-lock bars. See http://www.wildsnow.com/4534/tlt5-lean-lock-mod/

    I may still do some riveting, but mainly I’m interested in permanently attaching the extra tongue as I do feel the need now and then for a bit more forward support and I can’t get used to the idea of carrying boot parts around in my backpack.

    In fact, thanks for the inspiration, I might head out to the workshop fairly soon!

  198. Termine October 20th, 2011 12:13 pm

    At risk of making the worlds longest ski blog thread even longer I have a dilemma.

    I live and tour in the French Alps (Haute Savioe). The posts here had convinced me to buy a pair of TLT5 Mountains. However, when chatting to a local guide the other night he suggested that all the raving about them was from North Americans who mostly ski powder or soft snow. I currently use Mega rides with the tongues from an old Scarpa Denali to stiffen them up a bit. We had some really poor snow conditions here last year and I can’t say I enjoyed the descents that much (I always love the up!). Said guide suggested that in anything but good/soft snow I would be no better off in TLT5 Mountains even though they are a great boot.

    I am now currently looking at Titan Ultralights. I got my hands on a pair tonight and they are very nice with an amazing weight for the bulk. However, I subscribe to the light is right philosophy and my heart is with the TLT5.

    Is there anyone who has used Mega rides and now uses TLT5 Ms? I would be interested to hear your thoughts. My Mega rides liners are shot. Hence the need to change something. Some honest thoughts would be appreciated.

    Thanks All.

  199. harpo October 21st, 2011 8:52 am

    t, the tlt5 Performance is a world stiffer than the megaride with stock tongue. I cant comment on the mountain or the Denali tongue.

  200. Johnny L November 23rd, 2011 4:53 pm

    I just spent the passed few days skiing the TLT5p. What an amazing boot! While it does not have the progressive flex that Lou is looking for it is stout and makes for very controllable downhill performance even without the tongue. I used to ski the Mega Rides years ago which are very soft in comparison. I am coming from skiing BD’s John Deere Boot which is very comfortable but a bit sloppy in the 27. I was looking for a performance boot when I bought these and fitted them to length- 27. As in my Zzero3s, I am having some discomfort in the heels after a long day’s tour. I am hoping that they will break in some more or I might use a very early mod suggestion of removing some of the material in the heel cup. I will go with Federico’s suggestion of not doing anything for awhile to the shell; however I will follow Lou’s suggestion of molding the Palau liner specifically towards making more heel cup room. Maybe mold them with a thicker sock in the heel. Glad to see all the ideas about being careful with the buckles in tour mode while rock hopping and keeping an eye on the wires on lower buckle and pant trick/rubber doughnut to keep the cuff unlocked but buckled. It will be fun putting these boots to the test on a fat ski in deep and fast rather than tight and slow in early season conditions. Love all the banter, thanks to Fede and Dynafit we have something real to forum around.

  201. Federico November 25th, 2011 5:11 am

    Johnny, for getting more room on the heel don’t use thicker socks, use your normal touring socks… hopefully you use thin tight ones ;-) … and when you enter the boots with the heated liners, close the buckles and stand for approx 5-8 minutes still, having some “thick raising layer” under your toes.. I would say thick about 8-10cm in that position you will put much more pressure on the heel getting a better and deeper heel cup on the liner. This will also help you to gain some extra space on the toe area. I hope you undertand what I mean :-)
    Thanks for the nice comments.

    Fede

  202. Lou November 25th, 2011 8:41 am

    What Fede says. Standard thing in boot fitting and liner molding, after foot is in boot during molding process, stick something on the floor under your boot toes to tilt your feet up at the toe, thus making your whole body weight force you back into the heel cup area. In my shop, we use a chunk of 2x lumber so 1.5 inches seems to do it, though it’s not critical how much so long as you don’t get dumped over backward and can stand there long enough to get the heel molding going. At the same time, for toe room depend on using toe caps over your foot.

    Dynafit boots tend to be lasted with a heel cup that is fairly pronounced. Which is a good thing. Sometimes that particular last shape doesn’t fit a person’s foot just right and even after molding liner might not be quite right. In that case, you can build up a bit of tape on your foot in the areas where there seemed to be too much pressure after the first mold, then mold the liners again.

    Also remember that sometimes, you just need to get out in the boot and use it for a number of days to get your feet used to them. But don’t force it.

  203. Alexander Putz January 9th, 2012 10:28 am

    Wanted to add more praise for the TLT5 performance.
    Have skied and toured them for the last season and the start of this, in Austria and Germany. Setup is with the stock TF liner, Din12 Dynafit binders, and Scott Crusair 176.

    I ski pretty aggressively, usually look for a 120/130 flex in my ski boots, have a narrow heel and ankle area, high arch, narrow-normal forefoot.
    Had the Dynafit Titans for a season before the TLT5 Perf.

    Comparison: No discernible loss of power to the Titan, I actually found those to too stiff for the skiing I was doing (mostly fast, medium to large sized turns on pretty all terrain or snow, unless in the trees or when jump turning may be required).
    Easy turn initiation. Immediate power transfer with my narrow feet, excellent lateral stiffness.
    Not much loss in stiffness when skied without the tongues, I have started leaving these out for most terrain.
    Tendency to be a little too forward with these, so I purposely choose a more relaxed, upright stance.

    I ski the TLT5P inbounds too, as I find the narrow shell and the power of the boot in combination to be perfect, and prefer it to my Alpine boots for comfort. I dial down the speed a little bit on hardpack, but more because the skis are a little too soft for hauling on hard snow (used to Völkl Mantra and AC50 skis!). Still, I ski as fast as or faster than most people on the hill in that setup.

    I can also compare to the red-colored brother boot to the Green Machine (4 buckles), these can’t hold a candle to the TLT5s, neither up mor down!

    In summary, if you are an aggressive skier, and have the dough to spare, I highly highly recommend those boots. They were definitely worth it for me.

  204. Shane January 17th, 2012 5:50 pm

    Does anyone out there have any suggestions for arch pain in the tlt5′s. I’ve got flat feet, have the flattest superfeet (blue) and the intuition pro tour liners, one foot is definitely worse than the other. I don’t think the buckle position is necessarily the problem, I can feel the pain with the lower buckle undone. On the left foot the pain comes and goes and eventually subsides, the right foot can be unbearable at times, especially when skiing down. The boots are otherwise awesome I just hope I can make them work.

  205. Dawes Wilson January 20th, 2012 12:45 am

    Lou, Any update on the possible cuff angle reducing spare parts for TLT5′s that were discussed last year?

  206. Lou January 20th, 2012 7:41 am

    Dawes, the adjustable lean part will be available next fall. Bummer, I know…

    Shane, arch pain is sometimes difficult to diagnose. Experimentation is key. My suggestion as to first step would be to try an entirely new footbed system. Beyond that, know that sometimes having the buckle too loose will make it worse, and sometimes if the buckle is too tight. Confusing! Personally, I have a lot of trouble with the lower buckle on most boots pressing too hard on top of my foot, so I frequently find that adjusting the position of that buckle helps me. But that’s just me. Many other things as well, such as the boot being too sloppy in general and causing you to tense your foot muscles during skiing, resulting in cramp. And so on. Services of a good boot fitter can be gold…

  207. Ali E January 27th, 2012 1:48 am

    I finally got around to having the liners of my new TLT5 Performance boots moulded. To my dismay, they don’t feel as snug as they did out of the box. I now wish I had just worn them without moulding. They don’t seem to have fluffed up in the moulding process as much as I was expecting. Is this normal, or should I get them done again? They were heated for 8 minutes in a convection oven. (the local shops don’t have tower blowers.) When I got the liners of my previous boots moulded I remember that they got really tight while I was standing in them waiting for them to col down, That didn’t happen with the TLT5s.

    I haven’t ben able to ski them yet, as there is no snow here in bonny Scotland yet, but am off to the Alps at the weekend so will have a better idea of how they perform. I might be able to get them redone locally, but if anyone has any insights I would be grateful.

  208. Phil M January 27th, 2012 6:02 am

    What did you wear during the molding process? Part of the trick is wearing an extremely thin sock or piece of nylon stocking. The molding kit the shop uses should come with thsoe. Also, I’ve found it’s best to leave all the buckles one stop looser than you like to ski them while molding. This gives the liner room to puff up, and then you can crank it back down a bit.

    My Mountain liners are different than yours, but I noticed they didn’t puff up as much as the older-style Intuition liners I’ve molded before. They probably require the above steps more than most. Part of this might be that they are just very thin and have less material.

    FWIW, they cooked my liners for 12 minutes on the towers. That’s the same number I use in my home oven for other boots.

  209. Ali E January 27th, 2012 6:29 am

    Thanks Phil. Yeah, they got me to wear very thin nylons and buckled them up quite loosely. I’m wondering if 8 mins was really too short. I told them that figure, as someone had recommended not overcooking them, as they are so thin.

  210. Kerry February 23rd, 2012 8:46 pm

    Lou & Others,

    I took your advice on stiffness and bought the Performance model of the TLT-5–wow, what a boot! I was concerned about all the Dynafitter talk, as I didn’t want to buy a boot that would require tinkering. My perspective is these boots are fantastic right out of the box! My previous AT boots were the 4-buckle ZZero and the 4-buckle Garmont MegaRide. I was pleased with the stiffer ZZero, compared to MegaRide, and have found the TLT5 Performance another step up in stiffness–in spite of being just a 2-buckle boot and lighter!
    The TLT5 is wider in the metatarsals than both of the other boots mentioned here. I punched out the metatarsal area of the ZZero for 2-mm, the MegaRide even more. No boot shell modification was needed for the TLT5.
    I use the stock liner and power strap–see no problems with them.
    When I took these boots out of the box, I thought their size was mis-marked. They were noticably smaller than my other mondo 30 boots, in fact 9-mm shorter sole length than the ZZero! They fit true to length. I feel no difference in the heel area than either of my other boots.
    The owner’s manual indicates that the anatomically close shape does not require any footbed. I tried skiing with and without the stock footbed and had a custom full-length cork footbed installed for best fit for me.
    Break-in was just a little uncomfortable across the top of my arch–hadn’t experienced this with others. But after a few days in them, I have to say they fit almost as comfortably as the Green Machine (ZZeros), which some of my fellow ZZero owners call AT “slippers”. I did not thermofit the liner. It is thinner than other liners and I am concerned about packing out the liner sooner if thermofitted. Thermofitting may have alleviated the pinch I had at the top of the arch, which was cured anyway with a few days skiing.
    I always have the removeable tongue with me and did not modify it. The only time I remove it is for long climbs.
    Keep a wiregate ‘biner on the outside of my pack for quickly attaching the tongues to my pack. If I’m just climbing 1000′, I leave the tongue in place; just open the top buckle and loosen the power strap for a quick transition. Transition, even if I pulled the tongue for a long climb, is much simpler than I expected. The tongue slides back into place after opening the lower buckle and power strap (upper buckle is already open).
    I don’t have any problems getting my Mammut pant leg & snow cuff over the upper buckle when fully opened or closed.
    I have put about 18-days on this boot driving both the Manaslu and the 7Summits with them. The boot drives both skis well.

  211. Dan February 23rd, 2012 11:43 pm

    Kerry, Your story is identical to mine…right down to the pinch in the top of the foot and the Mammut (Champ) pants. I bought the TLT5Ps specifically for ski mountaineering (May, June, July in the Cascades and BC Coast range), but they ski so well that I am using them for winter back-country too. My only concern is that they will not be warm enough for me (frost-nipped toes a few times years ago). So far, that has not been a problem…probably because the toe box provides more wiggle room than my previous AT boots.

  212. Federico February 24th, 2012 3:17 am

    Kerry…. I tried to write it a few times.. only Lou and a few other folks in north america thinks the TLT5 needs tinkering. And when I read that somebody was scared to buy them for that I really get a little sad!.
    For most of the people which bought it it’s just perfect as it is (and they are a lot).
    For sure the best choice for any “real” ski mountaineers which can afford to buy it…. not by chance it became so famouse and popular as it is without any real marketing push behind…

    I’m really happy you love them and I hope you will have still many days of fun on them!.

  213. Climbing Stallion April 30th, 2012 6:46 am

    Love the Dynafit Performance TLT5 features and weight.
    Any clue as to weahter a siz 13.5 US foot will fit a 30 size?

  214. Philip Maynard April 30th, 2012 6:59 am

    It’s going to be very close, depending on foot shape and preferred fit – totally worth trying them on, even if you might have to pay return shipping.

  215. Lou April 30th, 2012 7:15 am

    What Philip says. More, the boot can be blown out a bit, especially in length.

  216. Climbing Stallion April 30th, 2012 7:20 am

    Is the yellow, black and white Dynafit TLT 5 Performance TF Alpine Touring Boot

    the same as the green black and white model from 2011/12?.

  217. Lou April 30th, 2012 7:43 am

    Both years, the yellow accented boot is the TLT5-P, the one with the carbon cuff. I’m curious, why do you ask? Should I clarify in blog post above? Lou

  218. Climbing Stallion April 30th, 2012 12:32 pm

    Lou,
    I saw the Mountain Gear Catelog and now I see that that’s not the ladies colors but the TLT5P .
    Sorry I new to the AT scene and I’m digesting a lot of info right now.
    Im an X downhill racer and ski area manager with new knees and a desire to ski only a couple of quality runs per day. It will never be the same as it was .
    Stopped skiing (My biggest love) for 15 years due to knee pain
    SO

    After a total knee replacement last May

    I would climb up our local Mt each day in the dark carrying my alpine EQuiptment… like 34 lbs., on my winter pack.

    Then ….on several days…I watchted this really fit dude with the green/white and black Dynafits and Hagan skiis
    climb straight up and ski down ………again and then again. 3 runs to my 1.
    The bell rang:
    This is my future!
    Thank you for being here to help me with my EQ research.
    John

  219. Lou April 30th, 2012 12:43 pm

    Stallion, you get it. Enjoy.

  220. Jack July 6th, 2012 9:01 am

    I just feel compelled to pass on a tip that I first heard from a Marine: when hiking long distances (or skiing boots that might leak a little in Spring conditions), rub Vaseline over your feet. I first tried this when training to run a marathon, where stepping into a puddle while several miles from home was pretty frequent. The Vaseline works to keep my feet from softening both from sweat or external moisture. There might be an organic equivalent, but good old petroleum product works really well. –Jack

  221. John July 9th, 2012 4:56 pm

    Lou,
    After two seasons, play is developing in the joints holding the carbon cuff to the boot. I can not find the article here on how somebody replaced these with stainless steel. Do you know of any solution for a do-it-yourself replacement or a shop anywhere that might perform this fix?
    Thanks,
    John in SLC

  222. Lou July 9th, 2012 5:48 pm

    John, that is indeed a true weak-point in the boot. Don’t know of an available solution. The guy who replaced his machined his own, pretty major. Here is the link: http://www.wildsnow.com/6332/tlt5-dynafit-modification/

  223. John July 11th, 2012 5:06 pm

    Thanks Lou. That’s a fairly ambitious and beautiful fix. Not sure I’m up for the same DIY approach.

    Federico, anything coming from Dynafit?
    Thanks.

  224. Arthur October 12th, 2012 5:23 pm

    Lou figured you’re the man to ask. I’m trying to mount a pair of 24.5s and find that the sole rubber doesn’t clear the wings of my Radical STs when you step into the bindings. It looks as if the only way to get the boot to stay flat would be to cut out sole material. Is this a know problem with the really small shells? Although I don’t imagine a 24.5 to be that small for a woman. Any insight would be helpful.

  225. Ryan October 13th, 2012 3:52 am

    If it helps I have TLT 5 mountains in a 25. I had the same problem, but just left the sole and got on with skiing in them. I did the whole season without a problem. I don’t think the force is enough to pop the binding or anything like that.

  226. Arnie October 13th, 2012 11:50 am

    John,
    I replaced mine with cuff bolts from a skate shop..designed for inline skates I think they were razors? Had to drill the rivets out which Lou has covered on here before..take your time and use water..I found an old counter sink in my tool box which I found easy to use..The hold your breath bit was seating them as you need to heat them up and “mold” them in..be brave..oh..and remember to breath.
    cheers
    Arn

  227. Lou Dawson October 13th, 2012 12:29 pm

    Arthur, I’d just cut a bit of sole material off. Not a big deal. Compromise, cut some and leave a bit… Also, as Ryan says, carpeskium.

  228. See October 13th, 2012 6:20 pm

    I don’t have TLT5′s, but it sounds like the hole in the carbon cuff is being enlarged by wear. It seems to me one could just drill out the old rivet, fill the hole in the cuff as with any composite material repair, drill a new hole, and then re-rivet. One could drill the new hole to achieve whatever cant one likes.

    I’m probably missing something obvious, but I figure no harm in putting that out there.

  229. Lou Dawson October 14th, 2012 1:12 pm

    See, a guy in Crested Butte machined his own pivot rivets… they do need to be something better than the OEM version, in my opinion. People who own these boots tend to put huge numbers of stride cycles on them, wear is inevitable unless moving surfaces are engineered to take it. Lou

  230. See October 14th, 2012 7:41 pm

    Yeah, I checked out that machine shop project… very nice.

    I was just thinking of a possible quick and easy (compared to machining custom parts) fix for a pair of boots with worn out cuff joints. One could even bond in some sort of bushing as part of the repair I outlined. Relocating holes solves cant issue, so I don’t see why regular rivets wouldn’t work, making the job simpler because no special parts required. It would require some skill with epoxy etc..

  231. See October 14th, 2012 7:57 pm

    Crested Butte? Sorry, I was thinking about the Wildsnow piece by Chris Marrone.

  232. Lou Dawson October 15th, 2012 6:52 am

    I don’t know why I was thinking Crested Butte. Yes, it’s the blog post by Chris, from Shasta.

    http://www.wildsnow.com/6332/tlt5-dynafit-modification/

    Lou

  233. Jeff November 18th, 2012 6:10 am

    Hey Guys, I too am trying to see if I can wear the TLT5 (mountain version). Since no shops stock this anywhere near me I’m doing this all with mail order. My foot measures 27.5 cm in length, so I ordered a 27.5 mondo.

    Wow are these snug! After skiing Scarpa and BD for years these the narrow last of these is a little startling. Immediately the narrow last and the fact that they look more like climbing boots make me think “no way”. After having them on though for awhile in the house I’m starring to think these may work. It looks to be about a finger behind my heel. Toes just every slightly touch the front of the boot. These sure are snug across the ball of the foot though. Both feet can sit flat, or nearly flat when I pressure the front of my foot, but there’s definitely pressure squeezing at that point.

    Can I last a day in these? Last night walking around the house I was ok for about an hour thinking they were starting to feel good… when my pain tolerance quit and I had to take them off.

    Should I try 28? I’ve worn 27 and 27.5 boots (Scookums, BD Primes, Scarpa Tornados) for so long, and even with these I’ve ended up chasing a packing out liner, wearing thicker socks and adding thicker boot boards.

    I’ve got a good boot fitter that can punch the shell for me, but of course I’d rather not bank on that from the start.

    Any advice from experience would be appreciated.

  234. Lou Dawson November 18th, 2012 1:42 pm

    Jeff, did you mold the liners yet?! No way to know for sure about the fit till you do that. Lou

  235. hans November 19th, 2012 2:30 am

    hey guys,

    just talked to my local dynafit dealer in austria who claims that the tlt5p skis as well as the mercury. what do you think about that?

  236. Jeff November 19th, 2012 5:17 am

    Lou,
    No, I didn’t mold the liners yet. I can still return/exchange this pair and I’m not convinced they will be much better after molding the liners. Frankly, I’m not a huge believer in heat molding liners. I’ve had it done, but was unimpressed. My last couple pairs of boots I just put them on an go, letting my sweaty feet mold them. I suspect I’m missing something, and should find a better shop to mold my boots since it seems to be all the rage!

    After spending 20 years in climbing shoes/boots my feet are decidedly poor at judging what fits and what doesn’t.

    Can I really gain much room by molding these liners?

  237. Lou Dawson November 19th, 2012 5:21 am

    Jeff, you’re really going off on some tagents when it comes to how modern ski boots work, evaluating fit, etc. Find a good boot fitter and work with them. Main thing I can tell you is a correctly fitted heat-moldable ski boot almost always feels too tight before it’s molded. Lou

  238. Lou Dawson November 19th, 2012 5:24 am

    Hans, sure, each person has different needs and everyone’s style of skiing is personal. For this guy, TLT 5 P might ski as well as Mercury. In fact, for some folks there is such a thing as too stiff and too beefy of a boot. That’s of course blasphemy in some circles where folks have never known a “DIN” value that was too high or a boot too beefy. But it’s true. Lou

  239. Richard Hanlder March 2nd, 2013 5:19 pm

    Very good discussion, but one thing needs to be added (Lou, note this): Intuition alpine molded liner. This solves lots of and maybe all the problems described.

  240. Christian March 4th, 2013 4:16 am

    Hans,
    I prefer the Mercury for skiing. There are two main differences:
    - The mercury skis well even without the toungue
    - The mercury does not collapse when pushed hard forward.

    I find the Mercury tougue to be frustrating – it is much more cumbersome to use than the tlt5…so I for touring I just leave it at home. With te tounge in place it is no problem overpowering skis that overpowered the tlt5p.
    (Got the mercury when my tlt5p developed play…)

  241. Lou Dawson March 4th, 2013 7:07 am

    Christian, good simple take on differences between the two boots. Thanks.

    Main thing to remember is TLT5 (and soon 6) are designed to compromise towards lighter weight and uphill comfort. Mercury is designed to be better on the downhill. Two very different boots.

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