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	<title>Comments on: Multiple Burial Controversy in Avalanche Rescue &#8212; Ortovox Speaks</title>
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	<description>Backcountry Skiing Snowboard Telemark Snowsports Information News</description>
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		<title>By: Randonnee</title>
		<link>http://www.wildsnow.com/1432/avalanche-burial-multiple-beacons-rescue/comment-page-1/#comment-11406</link>
		<dc:creator>Randonnee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=1432#comment-11406</guid>
		<description>Right on, Paul. I think that the cost of the ABS causes many to hesitate in getting one. I also think that marketing $$ and the off-target conversation in &quot;the avalanche community&quot; keep transceivers, probes, and shovels at the forefront. 

I watched a demonstration of the ABS at the 1994 ISSW and found it impressive. As soon as I found the ABS to be availble in the US, I bought one. I lug that ABS around when there is seasonal snow hazard potential, and feel like I am floating when I leave it behind in the spring! My buddy Jim got an ABS soon after I did (read about Jim and I in an avalanche on my Guest Blog). I will bet on my pulling the ABS handle easily over anyone rescuing me from burial- if I am not killed outright in an avalanche. 

The research that I have read for the ABS, and even amateur videos of successful ABS deployment and a &quot;save&quot; clearly and logically make tha case for ABS. Never get caught, but if you do use your floatation device!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right on, Paul. I think that the cost of the ABS causes many to hesitate in getting one. I also think that marketing $$ and the off-target conversation in &#8220;the avalanche community&#8221; keep transceivers, probes, and shovels at the forefront. </p>
<p>I watched a demonstration of the ABS at the 1994 ISSW and found it impressive. As soon as I found the ABS to be availble in the US, I bought one. I lug that ABS around when there is seasonal snow hazard potential, and feel like I am floating when I leave it behind in the spring! My buddy Jim got an ABS soon after I did (read about Jim and I in an avalanche on my Guest Blog). I will bet on my pulling the ABS handle easily over anyone rescuing me from burial- if I am not killed outright in an avalanche. </p>
<p>The research that I have read for the ABS, and even amateur videos of successful ABS deployment and a &#8220;save&#8221; clearly and logically make tha case for ABS. Never get caught, but if you do use your floatation device!</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.wildsnow.com/1432/avalanche-burial-multiple-beacons-rescue/comment-page-1/#comment-11403</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 04:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=1432#comment-11403</guid>
		<description>I have to wonder with all these comments regarding high tech beacons - why isn&#039;t there more talk regarding using ABS airbags?  It always astounds me how low the number of skiers who wear them is.  I don&#039;t want to hijack this thread but if you are not buried then you don&#039;t need a beacon to dig you out.

Disclaimer - I purchased a Vario 30 ABS pack last year.  I hope to never pull the ripcord but from all the reseach I have done it sure seems like a good backup plan.  Plus - an S1 is just about as expensive...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to wonder with all these comments regarding high tech beacons &#8211; why isn&#8217;t there more talk regarding using ABS airbags?  It always astounds me how low the number of skiers who wear them is.  I don&#8217;t want to hijack this thread but if you are not buried then you don&#8217;t need a beacon to dig you out.</p>
<p>Disclaimer &#8211; I purchased a Vario 30 ABS pack last year.  I hope to never pull the ripcord but from all the reseach I have done it sure seems like a good backup plan.  Plus &#8211; an S1 is just about as expensive&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Kinney</title>
		<link>http://www.wildsnow.com/1432/avalanche-burial-multiple-beacons-rescue/comment-page-1/#comment-11386</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Kinney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 02:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=1432#comment-11386</guid>
		<description>I got the report on the Cordova Incident (thanks to this thread) and dove in to it last night.  Very humbling and one of best avy white papers one could read who make their living  playing in avalanche terrain .  Thanks a bunch  Mike Weber of Valdez!!  Everyone should read it.  It&#039;s better than science and hope its available on-line sooner than later.  If you e-mail info@thompsonpass.com I can send(pdf) it to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got the report on the Cordova Incident (thanks to this thread) and dove in to it last night.  Very humbling and one of best avy white papers one could read who make their living  playing in avalanche terrain .  Thanks a bunch  Mike Weber of Valdez!!  Everyone should read it.  It&#8217;s better than science and hope its available on-line sooner than later.  If you e-mail <a href="mailto:info@thompsonpass.com">info@thompsonpass.com</a> I can send(pdf) it to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Randonnee</title>
		<link>http://www.wildsnow.com/1432/avalanche-burial-multiple-beacons-rescue/comment-page-1/#comment-11384</link>
		<dc:creator>Randonnee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=1432#comment-11384</guid>
		<description>Dave, my friend, not at all, just interested in this debate, and prone to overstatement. Your 2 cents are a good contribution.

As I like to state online and now in print (Backcountry Magazine Letter), I do not agree that the avalanche problem is mysterious or beyond forecasting within a near-certain probability. Again I ask that you believe that I have no intention to brag, but I have taught two partners to ski cut by directing them &quot;cut there, and it will avalanche&quot;, and it does, and my skill is matched or exceeded by many in the field. There are a  many skilled and knowledgeable individuals who can forecast avalanche probability with great accuracy. It is not necessary to stay on the beach, but on some days in the backcountry one may need to choose areas with greater safety over others. There are also a few days with so much hazard that one just must stay completely away from avalanche Ierrain. As an example, I have found a few long runs  that I snowmobile out to to ski when the hazard is high that are just steep enough for powder skiing but without avalanche potential. 

Some reports also illustrate that even some very skilled and avalanche-educated  individuals fail to exercise proper discipline in travel on avalanche terrain and are caught. Self-discipline is necessary along with understanding of the terrain, weather, and snowpack, and the resultant avalanche potential. My observation is that daily Northwest  Avalanche Center Forecasts will keep skiers out of trouble if they are heeded, in comparison to avalanche Incidents and the Forecast for the day of the Incident

Again, I have the gear, dog,  ABS, and expertise for rescue, but rely on none of it, I rely on my evaluation of the avalanche potential alone- get it right or die. That is because, as I have stated, there is an easily defined significant probability of being killed outright or injured seriously  if caught in an avalanche, regardless of the rescue that is mounted. Your team-mate with the latest gadget may very well just witness the horror of your death in an avalanche, and then quickly locate your body using the latest technology. 

I believe that the focus in the &quot;avalanche community&quot; is off target from the important topics. I believe that &quot;avalanche education&quot; has not had the proper effect on the knowledge, skill, and behavior of backcountry travelers. Since I am nobody of importance, but have had considerable experience and training and ongoing recreational backcountry avalanche hazard evaluation practice, I speak up in the hope that if what I say makes any sense, someone of importance may speak up. My interest is in staying alive as I randonnee ski several days per week on avalanche terrain all season. I no longer have any &quot;avalanche community&quot; association or title, my interest is academic. Only a few depend directly on my avalanche decision-making, including my family and a small collection of ski partners. 

Best, Rob</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, my friend, not at all, just interested in this debate, and prone to overstatement. Your 2 cents are a good contribution.</p>
<p>As I like to state online and now in print (Backcountry Magazine Letter), I do not agree that the avalanche problem is mysterious or beyond forecasting within a near-certain probability. Again I ask that you believe that I have no intention to brag, but I have taught two partners to ski cut by directing them &#8220;cut there, and it will avalanche&#8221;, and it does, and my skill is matched or exceeded by many in the field. There are a  many skilled and knowledgeable individuals who can forecast avalanche probability with great accuracy. It is not necessary to stay on the beach, but on some days in the backcountry one may need to choose areas with greater safety over others. There are also a few days with so much hazard that one just must stay completely away from avalanche Ierrain. As an example, I have found a few long runs  that I snowmobile out to to ski when the hazard is high that are just steep enough for powder skiing but without avalanche potential. </p>
<p>Some reports also illustrate that even some very skilled and avalanche-educated  individuals fail to exercise proper discipline in travel on avalanche terrain and are caught. Self-discipline is necessary along with understanding of the terrain, weather, and snowpack, and the resultant avalanche potential. My observation is that daily Northwest  Avalanche Center Forecasts will keep skiers out of trouble if they are heeded, in comparison to avalanche Incidents and the Forecast for the day of the Incident</p>
<p>Again, I have the gear, dog,  ABS, and expertise for rescue, but rely on none of it, I rely on my evaluation of the avalanche potential alone- get it right or die. That is because, as I have stated, there is an easily defined significant probability of being killed outright or injured seriously  if caught in an avalanche, regardless of the rescue that is mounted. Your team-mate with the latest gadget may very well just witness the horror of your death in an avalanche, and then quickly locate your body using the latest technology. </p>
<p>I believe that the focus in the &#8220;avalanche community&#8221; is off target from the important topics. I believe that &#8220;avalanche education&#8221; has not had the proper effect on the knowledge, skill, and behavior of backcountry travelers. Since I am nobody of importance, but have had considerable experience and training and ongoing recreational backcountry avalanche hazard evaluation practice, I speak up in the hope that if what I say makes any sense, someone of importance may speak up. My interest is in staying alive as I randonnee ski several days per week on avalanche terrain all season. I no longer have any &#8220;avalanche community&#8221; association or title, my interest is academic. Only a few depend directly on my avalanche decision-making, including my family and a small collection of ski partners. </p>
<p>Best, Rob</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.wildsnow.com/1432/avalanche-burial-multiple-beacons-rescue/comment-page-1/#comment-11381</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=1432#comment-11381</guid>
		<description>Getting a little hot headed there Randonnee? I think Steve&#039;s points are really good. You don&#039;t have to feel superior from getting caught in an avalanche. However, you do have experience that most others don&#039;t. Learn from that. You said &quot;I rely on none of it.&quot; regarding your experience. That&#039;s awful. What did you do right? Wrong? Was there group panic? Teamwork? Who led? So much to learn and you seem unwilling to share.

Of course you should practice avalanche avoidance first. But, I don&#039;t see any of us avoiding all snow on any angle all winter. Sadly, a beach is the ultimate avalanche avoidance :(

Just my 2 cents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Getting a little hot headed there Randonnee? I think Steve&#8217;s points are really good. You don&#8217;t have to feel superior from getting caught in an avalanche. However, you do have experience that most others don&#8217;t. Learn from that. You said &#8220;I rely on none of it.&#8221; regarding your experience. That&#8217;s awful. What did you do right? Wrong? Was there group panic? Teamwork? Who led? So much to learn and you seem unwilling to share.</p>
<p>Of course you should practice avalanche avoidance first. But, I don&#8217;t see any of us avoiding all snow on any angle all winter. Sadly, a beach is the ultimate avalanche avoidance :(</p>
<p>Just my 2 cents.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.wildsnow.com/1432/avalanche-burial-multiple-beacons-rescue/comment-page-1/#comment-11380</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=1432#comment-11380</guid>
		<description>Randonee-thanks for responding.

I  have also been involved in two incidents and both were due to total neglect of current conditions and a younger, less experienced mind set. I look back on them now and in one situation I was lucky to have lived. I have nothing to share from my experiences other than &quot;don&#039;t get blinded by excellent powder skiing.&quot;

&quot;Wow, celebrating life-threatening failures in judgment, and is that narrative being used as a Marketing tool? The focus is skewed tragically.&quot; 

My point was that these folks shared from their real experiences and were very well received by the ISSW attendees since they were providing practical information that others could learn from. One of the best questions the Fernie guys received was from an avalanche educator who asked &quot;What can you tell us from your experience that we can apply to our teaching efforts that we already do not?&quot; The Fernie kids had taken a Canadian AST course 30 days prior to being caught in the avalanche so it was pretty interesting. And they made a lot of good decisions that day (presentations will be available on DVD soon). 

The last two sentences in your last paragraph: SPOT ON. We cannot stress education enough so people can learn how to avoid avalanches. Having to actually use a beacon means that something has gone wrong that could have been avoided!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randonee-thanks for responding.</p>
<p>I  have also been involved in two incidents and both were due to total neglect of current conditions and a younger, less experienced mind set. I look back on them now and in one situation I was lucky to have lived. I have nothing to share from my experiences other than &#8220;don&#8217;t get blinded by excellent powder skiing.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Wow, celebrating life-threatening failures in judgment, and is that narrative being used as a Marketing tool? The focus is skewed tragically.&#8221; </p>
<p>My point was that these folks shared from their real experiences and were very well received by the ISSW attendees since they were providing practical information that others could learn from. One of the best questions the Fernie guys received was from an avalanche educator who asked &#8220;What can you tell us from your experience that we can apply to our teaching efforts that we already do not?&#8221; The Fernie kids had taken a Canadian AST course 30 days prior to being caught in the avalanche so it was pretty interesting. And they made a lot of good decisions that day (presentations will be available on DVD soon). </p>
<p>The last two sentences in your last paragraph: SPOT ON. We cannot stress education enough so people can learn how to avoid avalanches. Having to actually use a beacon means that something has gone wrong that could have been avoided!</p>
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