Scarpa F3 is the Meow of the Cat for Big Tours


This post by WildSnow.com blogger  

We’ve had a pair of Scarpa F3 kicking around here since early winter. They’ll be up at 24 Hours of Sunlight in a few days being borrowed by one of our team members (along with other dads, I’m coaching a team of three teenagers and one 20-something, more about that tomorrow and reports all weekend). I’m glad the F3s will get some good use at Sunlight, but I’m bummed they’re out of my possession, as they’re the perfect boot for doing longer, lower angled tours such as approach routes for the Colorado 10th Mountain Huts. Since we published hutski.com, I’ve found more excuses for those types of tours, and with warmer spring weather it’s time to do some trail research.

Scarpa backcountry skiing.
Scarpa F3 — backcountry skiing boot of choice for long, low angled trips.

Obviously, the stand-apart feature of the F3 is a metatarsal bend “bellows” not unlike the ubiquitous plastic telemark boot. Difference is that this bend is not tuned for adding power to a telemark turn, but rather to add ergonomics to your stride while using Dynafit bindings. Scarpa also makes another boot, the F1, that does the same thing. But the F1 is more a dedicated randonnee race boot that’s slightly less beefy in downhill mode.

In touring mode, while striding out on low angled terrain, you can sense the advantage of a metatarsal bend. It feels more natural, keeps your feet warmer due to increased blood flow, and makes your stride more efficient than that with stiff soled boots. That said, in my opinion the bellows adds no advantage on steeper climbs when higher heel lifts come into play, and even induces a slight sag during each step that uses up energy. Thus, this is indeed a fairly specialized boot you’ll want if you do much low angled touring, or just need the comfort and warmth of being able to bend your foot.

Scarpa backcountry skiing.
The boys getready at WildSnow HQ, molding F3 liners for team member Mike, fitting skins, and goofing around with things like riding a bongo board next to our glass bottle collection. Glad they’re good athletes. Don’t worry, the snowmobile helmet is not part of 24 Hours of Sunlight…

Using the F3 in alpine mode is a positive surprise. It’s only a 3 buckle boot, but with a tall cuff and tongue as well as a power strap, they ski fine. Just remember to have the proper size shim fixed to your ski under the boot bellows, otherwise you’ll feel the boot squeegee under your foot as you make turns, more, if the boot sags too much it can even cause inadvertent heel release. The shim is easy to install, but height is critical so two options are provided that accommodate various Dynafit binding models. Beyond that, you could also use the cool Scarpa shims that slide into the Dynafit crampon fitting.

Tip: When you install shims for Scarpa F3 or F1 boots, make sure they’re large enough and positioned in a way that doesn’t cause them to catch in the boot sole lugs during side release. By the same token, keep the shim lubricated by rubbing with alpine wax.

What’s not to love? Most people will find that a simple liner molding gives them a good fit in the F3, but some of us will need more work to compensate for the high arched last of the typical Scarpa shell. For hiking or snow walking (sans skis), I wish they’d get rid of the randonnee semi-duckbill toe. In fact, one wonders why in the world this boot has a standard toe? Isn’t it only intended for use with Dynafit bindings? At any rate, in my opinion they should re-design the toe to match that of boots such as Dynafit TLT, which has no duckbill. One other thing: The high tounge works well for the down, but tends to resist your shin during the long touring strides allowed by the bellows. While it would slightly compromise downhill performance, in our opinion a two piece tounge such as that of the Spirit 3 would be a better choice. Indeed, if I can come up with a pair of those I’ll probably swap them in. All above are minor complaints. This is a boot we’re using, and it works.

So, what we did with the F3 is combine it with a lightweight pair of Black Diamond Stigma mounted with super light Dynafit TLT bindings. When doing long low-angled routes into the huts I carry two sets of skins, one straight cut mohair that glides like crazy, and another wall-to-wall nylon for breaking trail or doing steeper climbs. I carry some nordic wax as well, and dab some on when conditions warrant. Our F3 setup is a joy to use and makes my part time job as a “hut researcher” a lot more fun. More, bellows boots are easier to walk around in so they’re excellent when you’ve got to hike up a dry trail for a few miles — or stand around and have a trailhead brew after the trip. In all, yes, F3 is indeed the cat’s meow!

Weight: 1484 gr 52.4 oz for size 28, one of the lightest boots out there, see our weight chart for comparo.

Shop for F3…

Comments

86 Responses to “Scarpa F3 is the Meow of the Cat for Big Tours”

  1. Andrew McLean February 20th, 2008 11:26 am

    I thought you got the Nytro for those long hut trip approaches? :)

    I’ve been skiing the F3′s for almost a year and they are my boot of choice for 90% of my skiing, including steeps, couloirs, long approaches, expeditions, etc.. A huge advantage of them is they tour so well you get get in more vertical with less effort, which means more skiing. Nowadays “performance” tends to mean, big, heavy Hummer SUV type of ski gear, but to me, the F3′s are more akin to a Porsche – super fast, nibble and responsive.

  2. Lou February 20th, 2008 11:31 am

    Indeed, the Nytro is a tool in the quiver, and bellows boots work good for snowmobiling (grin).

  3. Cam February 20th, 2008 11:59 am

    I feel like these boots are going to be the progression for those who are dedicated tourers. I’ve been on these boots for a season now, and won’t go back if I’m skinning up. I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew in terms of the actual need for big, heavy, stiff boots to go touring in. Typically I’m skiing softer snow when I tour, and I don’t need any more stiffness for that than what the F3s provide. these boots rock for the dedicated backcountry skier. I agree they don’t really cut it for the resort or the slackcountry, and I’m glad to see that you didn’t review them in that context.

  4. David Aldous February 20th, 2008 12:29 pm

    I’m teetering on the edge of purchasing a F1, Cult, and Dynafit Classic set up. For ~$100 more I could get the F3 instead. I’m currently on a Kilowatt, Spirit 4, and Vertical ST set up. I’m in northern Utah and am thinking about the F1/Cult set up as a spring, long tour and possibly some rando race ski and boot combo. If I’m not racing competetively would you reccomend the F3 instead of the F1?

  5. Lou February 20th, 2008 12:36 pm

    David, I’d go for the F3 if you’re not racing…that said, if you’re doing really long low angled tours the F1 could be better, but it sounds like you’re hiking for turns so I’d say F3

  6. Andrew McLean February 20th, 2008 12:47 pm

    David – A very cool feature of the F1 is that the cuff has such a huge range of motion and very little resistance. A big part of this comes from the F1 not having a bar & pin locking mechanism, which generates a lot of friction/resistance in even the best designs (including the F3). The downside of the F1 as an all around touring boot is that the cable is a bit dangly for mountaineering purposes (although they do work, watch out wearing crampons with F1′s) and if the cable breaks, you are flat on your back.

    I use the F3′s over the F1′s for general touring as they are simplier, and thus more reliable in the backcountry. Skiing wise, the F1 and F3 are the same.

    Another thing to bear in mind is that a F1 or F3 will not drive any ski with mega, kilo or phat in their name. I use mine with 167 K2 Chogoris, or some K2 Mt. Baker Superlights, which is right at the edge of their range. Using a lightweight boot on a big ski is like putting wide tires on a Toyota Prius – it may look cool, but it defeats the purpose.

  7. David Aldous February 20th, 2008 12:54 pm

    Andrew
    I’m looking at the 177 Cults to go with this set up which are 102-70-90 so I’m not too worried about having too much ski for the boot. Part of the problem is that the engineer side of me likes the fancy cuff features of the F1.
    Thanks Lou and Andrew for the suggestions.

  8. Andrew McLean February 20th, 2008 1:01 pm

    I took some F1′s on a trip where we intended to traverse 200 miles of flats, and instead we ended up skiing a bunch of rock-hard 50 degree couloirs with them and they were fine. I guess it depends a lot on how and where you ski. The F1′s aren’t the ideal boot for laying arcs on an icy World Cup race course or Davenporting through breakable crust at high speed, but I think they work well for traditional (for lack of a better word) backcountry skiing. As their name implies, they are are like an F1 race car – super fast and light, but perhaps not 100% reliable at all times. If you want that, get the F3.

  9. David Aldous February 20th, 2008 1:28 pm

    I guess we are talking about 4oz total weight difference. If I particpate in the Powder Keg next year I’ll be in the recreational category. If I decide to get into racing more seriously I would probably be getting an even lighter ski. I get the impression that the F3 would do fine in a recreational type race and would be better for general touring. I have also liked the Intuition liners that I have in the Spirit 4s and the F1s do not come with intuitions.
    If the 26.5 Sprits fit well is it pretty safe to assume both the F1 and F3 in the same size should fit also?

  10. Darren Jakal February 20th, 2008 1:56 pm

    Hi Lou,

    This is my first time leaving a comment and just want to say it was great bumping into you and your family at the CiloGear booth at SLC.

    Just want to add to the discussion on the appropriateness of the F3 on the steep stuff as I use this type of gear for everything from getting to the hut as well as on the route, both up and down. After 20 years of freeheel mountaineering I switched to F1 boots on Trab FreeRandos two years ago (I dropped my tele gear when NTN finally showed up and I was totally disgusted with the backcountry potential of the design.)

    I find that the bellows in my F1s cost no energy when they sag on high heel and that I am able to actually get some “energy return� from my system on certain steep skin tracks. With the binding in high heel, stride forward and simple let your body (and pack) weight compress the boot from tongue to bellows. Stride through with the opposite leg and unweight in time with the boot rebounding to its neutral position. Doing this I am able to have the boot help with both plantarflexion of the leg relative to the foot at the beginning of the stride (from the tongue rebound and why I like it) and also from plantarflexion of the toes relative to the foot during the latter part of the stride from the bellows rebound (something that an average person doesn’t get with this joint as the muscles that should drive this portion of gait are simply to small to add much energy to final push off).

    The bellows may also allow better use the dynafit crampon because the boot forefoot is able to bend and push the crampon into the snow.

    The massive weigh saving and free pivot tour mode makes this gear climb with little effort and it skis fine on anything I have pushed it on. Good technique is essential and if people learned to ride their boards and not depend on their boots and binding for maintaining a proper stance over their skis then they could ride their boards like surfers, with nothing but their feet and balance. Big boots and binding really only come into effect when your centre of mass is not over your skis and you need to get back on them (or to keep you from going off the skis in the first place). Relying on gear for technique leads to ridiculous designs that sacrifice weight and complexity for light and simple. For example the “active� telemark binding has ruined tele technique for the backcountry and has relegated it to a resort sport (if NTN is really going to be the “norm�).

    Anyway enough for now, love your blog.

  11. Luke February 20th, 2008 2:32 pm

    I’ve used the F1′s a few times with a superlight set- up (Ski Trab Duo Sint Aero and Dynafit bindings). Once on hard-packed and spent a couple of days skiing powder :)

    I noticed the flex in the toe of the boot a little on the downhills when I was on hard-packed. It had a “looseâ€? feel to it. On the other hand it was an amazing feeling to ski such a light and agile set-up in the powder. Very quick and responsive. No complaints there. This was a phenomenal boot for the uphills – very comfortable – could be worn as a daily shoe.

    My experience with the F1 is that it’s an agile boot, great for touring and more relaxed skiing.

    From the looks of the F3, compared to the F1, I like how it doesn’t have the huge lever to switch from touring to downhill mode on the back. I took a few gnarly diggers to the knee when walking around with the F1 in touring mode (lever up).

  12. Lou February 20th, 2008 5:07 pm

    Luke, the later model F1s have a lever that folds up flush with the boot…

  13. Lou February 20th, 2008 5:08 pm

    Darrren, nice points, thanks!

  14. Derik February 20th, 2008 5:20 pm

    Lou and Andrew and Cam (or all F3 owners)-

    Any durability issues with the older school buckles and lock mechanism on the F3? The Spirit 3 (current boot) is tough and has lasted through lots of walking, scrambling, crampons, and even bad skiing.

    Love my F1 (euro race version) for ….. well … racing ….. but they are even a little softer than the original F1 in my opinion. So the F3 would be perfectly in the middle.

    Thanks for the review.

    DG

  15. Mike Kaz February 20th, 2008 6:03 pm

    Lou-

    Long time reader, first time poster.

    Picked up a pair of F3′s this year and really dig ‘em. I find that (to Darrens point) you just have to finesse them when the going gets tough, but they are more than adequate for a myriad of snow conditions. I have had the opportunity to ski them in everything from east coast ice to Utah powder and they have been outstanding.

    From a touring standpoint, obviously they rock…it is really the capability in descent I have been most impressed with. Even today, arcing GS turns at the local hill…my son and I chasing racers down the local racecourse while they set up for the week’s racing.

    I am looking forward to getting them in their “intended turf” of ski mountaineering over the next few weeks and spring…with hiking, climbing and touring. I think they will not disappoint.

    I have to say, they are everything I hoped they would be. Thanks for the review.

    Cheers!

  16. Drew February 20th, 2008 6:24 pm

    For those that have skied bot the F3 and Matrix.
    How do they compare?

  17. Andrew McLean February 20th, 2008 7:28 pm

    Derik – I haven’t had any problems with the buckles or lock mechanism, but then again, I think I am easy on my gear compared to many people. I’ve never broken a pair of F1′s, but have repaired my wife’s about 50 million times (usually the old style pin).

    Drew – In order of progression, it goes from the lightest F1 to the F3, then it takes a sizable jump up to the Matrix. The Matrix is quite a bit more beef and is more of a traditional 50/50 AT boot.

  18. Darren Jakal February 20th, 2008 7:57 pm

    Does the latest lever leave enough room to get a ski pole handle between the boot and climbing post for quick downhill to tour switching?

    I broke my original levers, but probably because after stabbing myself too many times and always feeling that I could catch them on something I machined them (and weakened them) to get them to flip up and lie flat. But with the original levers I had enough room for the handle but the second generation does not have enough room and I have to flip the boot lever to tour first. Other than that these levers are fine, as they are milled from solid stock so they are much stronger than the original cast levers. Just want to get the original behaviour back as they were easier to use.

  19. Jonathan S. Shefftz February 20th, 2008 8:16 pm

    Thanks for the great review, and the many helpful posts from various readers.
    More generalized F1/F3 q for everyone:
    – What mm thickness shim do you use? (And pls specify whether for regular TLT or Comfort/VerticalST.)

    Also, just to add some of my own feedback, last season I used the TLT Evo (i.e., update of the classic TLT4) for my light & fast outings. (Although for the easy rando race courses out here, and outings that entail far more schlep than ski, I use a heavily modified MLT4.) I just bought a friend’s old F1 boots, and having used them only 2x so far, the bellows definitely helps going up moderate pitches, although hard to tell otherwise. Skiing performance is solid, even on firm lift-served snow, although this particular pair is way too wide in the forefoot for me.

  20. Lou February 20th, 2008 8:39 pm

    Jonathan, in my case I’ve found that the thickness of the required shim seems to vary a bit according to the size of the boot, how much rocker it has, etc. I recall it’s sold with two shims. The thicker is intended for use with Comfort/Vertical and the thinner for use with TLT. The standard ones usually work, but like I said, sometimes a custom one is better. We make our custom ones out of whatever is laying around the shop, recently some old Voile tele plates because we didn’t seem to need anything thicker than that.

  21. Andrew F. McLean February 20th, 2008 9:01 pm

    After much doinking around with shims, I’ve starting using a 1″ hole saw in a drill press to cut perfect little pucks out of an old cutting board. The hole saw cuts the cylinder, complete with a pilot hole down the center. I then just use one screw to hold them in place. The cutting board is about 3/4″, but almost anything in that range will do – just put the boot in the binding, slide the puck underneath until it touches a lug, mark it, release the boot, drill and screw. The standard shims are waaaaay overkill.

  22. Bill Bollinger February 21st, 2008 12:09 am

    I have been skiing the F1 for the last couple of years as my sole
    AT setup. This year I picked up some F3′s. I was a little discouraged with the stiffness of the tougue in impeding my stride so I snipped it at and just above the ankle strap. This softened it and made a more comfortable touring setup ( I am spoiled with the F1). I would like to see a little more forward rotation on the cuff though( I feel a mod coming on).
    Otherwise I love it and it does seem more solid then th F1.
    Other note : I use a full width shim that supports the outside lugs of the boot. Dealing with light Telemark gear for all these years I feel it provides better resistance to the twisting of the boot and a more reliable release situation.

  23. Mike Kaz February 21st, 2008 9:24 am

    For my shim, I used an old Voile Heel piece (the older thicker/wider model…approx 11/12mm thick) and that has done the trick. The cutting board trick is slick Andrew…I used to use those to make shims for tele bindings before they made shims (or fealt like you needed them) and never had issues with durability.

    As for comment by Drew on F3 vs. Matrix…to use boot “flex-rating-speak”, the Matrix has a flex rating of 80. (For comparison, the Hurricane has a 120 flex rating) The F3, I believe is only slightly softer than the Matrix…but was told that with the bellows it is hard for the manufacturer to dispense an actual flex rating on the F3.

    Has anyone spent time with crampons on their F3′s and how comfortable were they to hike/climb with?

  24. Matus (Euro) February 21st, 2008 10:21 am

    Off F3 topic > I am a bit suprised that Andrew McLean uses K2 Chogori. Until today I considered these skis to be for ladies (my wife rides them:) or lightweight unaggressive gentlemen. Andrew, if you read this, please let us know why did you choose Chogori and not e.g. K2 Shuksan. Based on the info from my wife (who is a very good skier), Chogori are light but still strong multi condition skis – do you share this view? Thanks.

  25. AJ February 21st, 2008 10:38 am

    Hi Matus,

    The German magazine Alpin did a test of AT skis in 2007. In the lightweight category (less than 2.7 kg) the Chogori was the winner. The verdict: light and fun multi condition skis.

    To my knowlegde, there are no his and hers versions. Mayde you could sneak out on the ski’s of your wife sometime. Nobody will know :-)

  26. SMS February 21st, 2008 11:08 am

    I’ve used both the F1′s and the F3′s. They ski very similar, and I think Andrew touched on the two biggest differences. The upper cuff on the F1 freely pivots as far as you want to stride making them a dream to tour in. With the cable/lever mechanism, you can switch to touring mode very quickly as well….but could lend themselves to failing in the feild more easily than the F3. Conversely, the F3′s require more fiddling to go to touring mode, and the bar slider assembly does not allow the upper cuff to pivot as well for touring. They still tour very well, and the Intuition liner is reason enough to go with the F3, in my opionion.

  27. Lou February 21st, 2008 12:52 pm

    I just had an interesting conversation with a Scarpa rep, about the whys and wherefores of the F3. He said the reason the toe sockets do NOT have any backset is that the lower part of the F3 uses the original F1 mold, and because of economics they decided to upgrade the new F1 mold first. Thus the new F1 does have the pivots backset — a full 6 mm! He also said they would have used the new F1 lower mold, but that it didn’t work with the lean lock of the F3. And so on.

    He also mentioned that the F3 has been the highest selling Scarpa model in Europe. I thought that was quite interesting. Enlightened Europeans? Or do they just need light boots because they eat too much strudel?

  28. Andrew F. McLean February 21st, 2008 12:58 pm

    I the Chogoris and was/am crestfallen that they have been discontinued in the US due to lack of “underfoot width.” There is no market in America for anything less than 90mm, although I’ve been told that you can still get them in Europe.

    Personally, when I tour, I use touring skis. When I go to the resort, I use resort skis. Trying to use one set-up for both is generally disappointing. A BC set-up will always leave you wanting for performance in the resorts, and a resort set-up is too heavy for touring. I even mention this as I use the Chogoris 100% for backcountry skiing, so the idea of high speed stability, railing turns on groomers, etc., doesn’t apply.

    My favorite set-up is a 167cm Chogori, Scarpa F3 boots and Comfort (or ST Vert) Dynafit bindings. On the skis, it should be noted that when I’ve participated in ski tests, I’m almost always the odd man out – I usually like a ski which everyone else hates, and vice verse! I’ve been told that this is because I’m light (143 lbs) and make turns. In general, and I hate to publicly admit this, I like women’s skis, so it is not too surprising your wife liked the Chogoris as well. She is obviously a women of refined taste.

  29. David Aldous February 21st, 2008 2:24 pm

    Lou
    Does the dynafit classic binding have enough adjustment range to accomodate both a F3 and a Spirit 4 of the same mondo shell size?

  30. Derik February 21st, 2008 2:47 pm

    Second the wife on the Chogori. My wife likes hers and we got them sooo cheap last year. Its almost like no one likes them?! ……..or perhaps all the boys in CO need to have a fat ski to compensate for something else ………:-)

  31. Lou February 21st, 2008 3:01 pm

    Yeah, to compensate for our frequently crumby snowpack, or to enjoy a good one like this year. (grin).

  32. Lou February 21st, 2008 5:27 pm

    Aldous, I just checked our F3 and Spirit 3, both in 28, and if the binding was mounted with care they would both work with the same TLT mount. I assume the same could be said of the Spirit 4.

  33. Andrew F. McLean February 21st, 2008 6:12 pm

    “Backcountry skiing” in American now includes just about any type of mechanized uphill transport, so it makes sense to me that lighter skis are getting discontinued.

  34. David Aldous February 21st, 2008 6:48 pm

    Thanks Lou.
    I was a little surprised to hear that the F3 doesn’t have the optomized inserts. Looking at the pictures of the boot in the catalog and on various websites it looks like they are a ways back but some of that could be the angle of the shot or the pictures could be of a boot that isn’t the production model I guess. I can understand their re-using molds because they are quite expensive particularly when you need to make several for different sized shells.

  35. Jonathan S. Shefftz February 21st, 2008 8:34 pm

    Thanks for the shim suggestions — I had made a disk/puck out of LDPE, with a single screw, although I shaped the circumference with a dremmel, so it’s, uhh, not exactly as circular as I had intended.
    Sizing q: for those of you who have the 2007-08 F1 or F3 in a 25.5, 26.0, 26.5, or 27.0, can you list the printed boot sole length (and without any adjustment for the effective mounting length b/c of the socket setback)?
    I’m hearing different #s from different sources as to how the 2007-08 bsl changed. (And wow, what a collection of F1/F3 comments!)

  36. Sean Dacus February 21st, 2008 9:14 pm

    Hi Lou, Thanks for the great websight. I’ve picked up a lot of great tips already, and am hoping you might be able to supply me with another one. I recently bought the scarpa spirit 4 which i’m very happy with. I’m looking to maximize my forward lean in the boot and find the adjustment screw a bit confusing. Any suggestions?

  37. Randonnee February 21st, 2008 9:40 pm

    Interesting to see (divergant) discussion of the K2 Chogori. My 174 cm Chogori are quite fun. I bought the Chogori for spring and summer to use with a TLT 4 boot but have found that they are quite versatile and work well considering the waist measurement in breakable crust, shallow powder, hard snow, and great on corn. Walking and ascending in the TLT 4 and Chogori are quite enjoyable, as is making quick turns in trees or chutes. While skiing with others on “bigger” skis I noticed that I just skied less aggressively and slower but felt like I had fun turns. The wide tip seems to work very well to float the Chogori out of whatever, especially when platforming the skis together. My other skis currently used are Dynafit FR 10 and the Seven Summit. Last week I toured two days on the Chogori after a warmup and refrozen crust interrupted a season with a lot of powder. Perhaps of interest, I am 6 ft 1 inches tall and weigh 225 lbs., an ex-logger, but those Chogori work just fine for me. I look forward to some spring trips with longer approaches on the Chogori/ TLT 4.

  38. David Aldous February 21st, 2008 11:34 pm

    Sean
    Turn the screw counter clockwise to increase the forward lean. I’m assuming that you are already putting the boot in the further forward lean setting. That applies to both of the forward lean screws. Your boots should come with the velcro attached spoilers that also can give you more of a forward lean. Hope this helps.

  39. Matus (Euro) February 22nd, 2008 1:13 am

    Andrew, thanks for the info about K2 Chogori. Yes, indeed it is still possible to get them here in Europe (usually on sale). There is a demand for the skis with the similar dimensions here. The reason is maybe that take “light is right” motto more seriously :)

  40. Luke February 22nd, 2008 8:40 am

    Matus/Andrew-
    Are there any Euro websites that I could order Chogoris from? Would shipping be prohibitively expensive? If that doesn’t work, what other skis are out there with similar dimensions? It’s tough to find something with a similar sidecut, most skis ~70mm underfoot seem to be ~100mm at the tip. It would be nice to have something closer to 110 for the float and improved sidecut for quick turning. Any ideas?

  41. Matus (Euro) February 22nd, 2008 9:23 am

    Luke, I would suggest using Google:) I would not recommend importing skis to US (expensive shipping costs, customs etc..) If you cant get Chogori take Shuksan or some Blizzards or Fischer X-Calibur.

  42. Randonnee February 22nd, 2008 9:36 am

    Luke,

    Pro Ski in North Bend WA had some Chogoris last Dec., check there.

  43. Andrew F. McLean February 22nd, 2008 3:55 pm

    I think the Chogori grew out of the K2 Summit, which looks like it might be a nice ski. I’ve heard there are still some of them floating around, especially in Europe. Just at a glace, it appears the Chogori is a snub-nosed version of the Summit, but there is probably more to it than that. The new BD Cult ski looks pretty cool as well, although I haven’t skied on it. Goode makes a great mid-sized lightweight $ki. Trabb is another.

    Sean – on the Scarpa boot adjustment, I put a piece of tape (or Post-It Note) on the lower shell of the boot and then turn the heel adjustment. You can see the upper cuff incrementally moving forward or aft in relation. I usually turn mine all the way forward, for no other reason than I use to race and equate more fwd lean with more performance.

  44. Randonnee February 22nd, 2008 10:39 pm

    In regard to Summit v Chogori. My wife has 174 cm K2 Summit Superlight skis. The Summit Superlight seems to have a softer flex than the Chogori.

  45. Plinko February 23rd, 2008 12:15 am

    This is a great line of dialogue…Thanks Lou and all!

    Darren Jakal,

    Did you manufacture the replacement heel levers for your F1′s or did you source them from the guy making them in Italy? Earlier this week my F1s suffered the same failure due to some overly-aggressive modification. :p

    I’ve been searching in vain for a pair of Chugori for over a year now. Even Martin V. and Mike Hattrup didn’t have any solutions. If anyone finds a source, post it up please?

    Re: Ski crampons with F1s vs. other boots. Earlier this week I was on F1′s on Dynafit Classics, while my climbing partner was on Zzero 4′s on Vertical ST. We both used standard/unmodified Dynafit crampons. He was having a heck of a time getting up because with the heel riser in use, the crampon hinges up and gets no purchase in the snow/ice. Surprisingly, the F1′s bellows allowed me to get plenty of purchase even with the heel riser engaged. He ended up rotating the heel so there was no lift, just to get his crampons to engage the snow surface. Aside from buying different crampons, is there a solution for this?

  46. Plinko February 23rd, 2008 12:23 am

    Anyone have contact info for Darren Jakal?

  47. David Aldous February 23rd, 2008 12:27 pm

    The F3 seems to be shipping with just the shims designed for the tlt and not for the vertical/comfort. They have two types of shims with them. One for the front of the boots under the bellows and one smaller one designed to be placed under the heel of the boot. It seems that all of the discussion about shims has been regarding the under bellows shim. Is the heel shim necessary for the TLT only or is it necessary at all? Thanks, Dave

  48. Darren Jakal February 23rd, 2008 2:13 pm

    Plinko,

    Right away I made my own from aluminum stock (based upon the second generation lever that my ski partner had on her F1 Races). These are way overbuilt and heavy, but they will never break and they are my back up if I ever need it (the second generation I have on now are way stronger -milled not cast- and I don’t think they will ever be a problem).

    I’m lucky and my partner is from Italy and she contacted Scarpa directly. Scarpa were great and they sent us a pair of second generation levers along with some first generation ones and a bunch of boot parts (I had broken one of the plastic cable routers when a fastener came undone and they threw in some spare cables and buckle parts, can’t remember if we paid anything, but if we did it was a good deal).

    Only problem is with the 2nd gen. lever is interference when using a ski pole handle for quick downhill to tour switching. I saw the latest version at the OR show and it looked to have more room for a handle but I am not sure. This one doesn’t look milled, but it may be forged (anyone know?).

    I look forward to more discussion along these lines as I think this is the future of ski mountaineering. Like we used to say “all conditions, all terrain”.

  49. Jonathan S. Shefftz February 23rd, 2008 4:27 pm

    “…with the heel riser in use, the crampon hinges up and gets no purchase in the snow/ice. [....] He ended up rotating the heel so there was no lift, just to get his crampons to engage the snow surface. Aside from buying different crampons, is there a solution for this?”
    Very easy: the crampon already has two little holes, which are perfect for adding spacers. And some extra little TLT heel elevator spacers are perfect. (For attaching them, I use a kind of screw rivet on the underside of the crampon — I think the hardware store bin says “Bradford hole” or something like that — and then a little threaded bolt on the top side that mates with the screw rivet.)

  50. Plinko February 23rd, 2008 4:40 pm

    David, Good info on the shims! I’ve been running shimless with TLT Classic/F1 combo, I lock the the toe lever, 2 clicks, for touring AND skiing. So far so good.

    Darren, Thanks or all the great details! F1s have long been my favourite, and been exciting to see all the positive changes made since the 1st generation (with standard ankle buckle, no cables, and no big heel lever). The ones after that/2nd gen and the current offering/gen 4 are my fav because the heel lever fold flat and out of the way. After snapping my modified gen 2 (forged) levers on gen 3 boots, I ordered a pair or replacement from here: http://www.schiameccanica.com/ecommerce.php It’s in Italian, and there’s no Englsih version, but it’s pretty easy to figure out. This guy makes some nice milled products that I’m hoping will survive my repeated beatings :) I’ll know more after a few rando races in the next few weeks. I’d also like to add a buckle on the cuff to replace the cable, so it’s more user friendly with crampons…

  51. Chris February 26th, 2008 10:17 am

    Any recommendations on good alternatives to the F3 if the F3 doesn’t really agree with your foot? I tried a pair on yesterday, and like most of my Scarpa experiences, it was a struggle just to get them on my foot (was even worse with an F1). I attribute this to my somewhat high instep making it difficult to wedge my foot in the boot. Once on my foot they felt OK but not great. So I am wondering what experiences anyone might have with an alternative…

  52. colin c. March 5th, 2008 11:36 am

    Thanks for this good thread. I have a question about sizing for the F3. I just received my new boots, a mondo 29.5, which is the same size that I ski my T2s. The 29.5 T2 is a performance fit for me, almost vacuum packed when I slip them on, but when I slipped on the 29.5 F3 I was surprised by how loose they feel. A friend has suggested that the liner is a totally different deal, and will expand when I have it custom fit. I did the shell fit, and can fit two fingers behind my heel. Any suggestions? Is a 29.5 a 29.5 a 29.5?

    Thanks! Colin

  53. Lou March 5th, 2008 11:45 am

    Colin, sorry, I only cover AT gear so have no experience with going from a tele boot fit to an AT boot. I can tell you that if the shell fit is correct, you should be able to fit the boot after molding the liners and possibly filling up some volume with a spacer beneath the liner and/or your custom footbed.

    Mainly, KNOW that you can’t evaluate fit volume by sticking your foot in an un-molded liner. That’s done by doing the shell fit, after which the liner must be molded to evaluate the true fit.

    If you like tight boots, you might consider going to a “tight” two finger fit, if that’s not what you’re already getting. At the least, try the next shell size down and see how much space there is behind your heel.

  54. Dave March 5th, 2008 12:50 pm

    Colin –

    Dave here with SCARPA North America. I have a little info that I hope will be helpful.

    First off, with regard to comparing F3 fit against T2 fit, if you are talking about the current generation of T2X, then the shell length should be the same. However, if you are skiing an older generation of the T2X or T2, that may not be the case. So from a length perspective, it depends on what T2 you are talking about.

    Otherwise, volume definitely will be different, because not only is the last of the shell in those boots different, but you’re dealing with totally different liners. The F3 comes with a tongue-style Intuition liner, and the Intuition foam (as your friend suggested) indeed is able to accomodate a wider range of foot volumes, because when heated it has a wider range of adjustment than a standard thermo liner (in other words, the foam can puff out or be compressed more).

    But rather than comparing the F3 to other boots, I would say the best thing to do is start with a shell fit for the F3 and go from there (as you have done). But one thing to note is that while the finger method of shell fit is better than nothing, it notoriously inaccurate, because people’s fingers vary quite a lot in thickness. SCARPA this year came out with a fit stick to take this guesswork out of the shell fit and many dealers have them. The stick is 14 mm on one side and 30 mm on the other, so basically you want to have somewhere in between those two measurements of space behind your heel (when standing in the shell, toes just touching the front of the boot, foot weighted). That’s basically between half an inch and an inch of space.

    Often, the two finger measurement can equate more to about an inch and quarter of space (though not always). I’d start by using the more accurate technique to do a shell fit, and then, if you are in the right size shell, you can take up volume by (as Lou suggested) adding a thicker footboot as well as through the Intuition liner molding process itself. And if that’s not sufficient, certainly a good bootfitter has many more tricks in the bag. Again, as Lou suggested, shims in the boot, etc.

    Hope that helps!

  55. George T March 6th, 2008 6:34 am

    Colin:
    I have the last model of the T2 in 30.0 and purchased the Matrix in 29.5. My shell lengths are ~ same (big dowel) behind the heel. Dave got a big point in that the two liners differ, but my experience was that my old T2 expanded more than the intuition liner. I heated and molded both boots within 2 days. I also added a Montbell foot bed and added a footboot liner to the Matrix to get a tighter fit. My Intuition liners feel firmer than the old T2 molded liner. My guess is that the T2 shell is softer and therefore compresses easier when cranked down to give your inner boot a more secure feeling. Go get fitted. GeorgeT

  56. Greg Olsen August 13th, 2008 7:14 pm

    Sorry to highjack this thread but Darren Jakal if you read this sorry the other day I thought you were an artist I know Steve Heimbecker, and had not had enough coffee yet that morning clearly. I cannot find contact info for you anywhere and this is the only place on the web where I found ANYTHING with your name. call me at 403-202-5731 Greg O.

  57. Lou August 13th, 2008 8:12 pm

    Hey Greg, no problem, let me know if you get the contact and I’ll delete the comment. Lou

  58. Greg Olsen August 13th, 2008 9:39 pm

    Thanks Lou.
    Love the BLOG. I will let you know if he contacts me..or not.
    Greg

  59. Mark Pollock September 4th, 2008 11:30 am

    I know the story is that the F3′s are compatible with Dynafit bindings ONLY, but they look like they would work in a more traditional AT binding as well (eg. Fritschi titanal). Why would the boots have the typical AT “duck bill” on the front if they are only made for Dynafit? I know, being locked into the binding at both heel and toe would reduce the ability of the bellows to flex in touring mode, but would this cause bigger problems as well? In downhill mode, couldn’t some sort of specialized shim be used?

    Any other ideas for a light, soft, touring boot compatible with Fritschi bindings (for someone with wide feet)?

  60. Big Steve October 21st, 2008 2:47 pm

    Mark,

    My F3′s seem to be compatible with my Fritschis, but I cannot imagine why anyone would ski the F3′s with anything other than Dynafits. As you note, the the bellows is rendered nonfunctional with any non-Dynafit binding. So I agree with Lou that Scarpa ought to redesign the F3 to get rid of the semi-duckbill (although, if the shell material is no tougher than that of my Spirit 3′s, the toe will soon wear down). Notwithstanding this nitpicking, after a full season of use, I love my F3′s, which I use for nearly all of my backcountry skiing.

    Also, I have relatively wide feet, and the F3′s fit okay, although it’s a snug telly boot sort of fit, substantially narrower than my Spirit 3′s. YMMV, of course.

    Steve

  61. Stephen November 6th, 2008 2:10 am

    Does anyone know what, if any, difference there is between the 1/2 and whole sized liners which fit in the same shell? Rumours have suggested that perhaps there’s no difference, or that the sole is thicker on the smaller liner, but I”ve seen no comment from Scarpa about this. I would definitely need the 27.5/28.0 shell for length, but have a low volume foot with a narrow heel. Is the 27.5 likely to have a smaller circumference and/or be tighter around the heel???

  62. Lou November 6th, 2008 7:39 am

    Stephen, I’d get the liner size that fits your foot best. That said, in a given shell size the main difference you’re going to get in the liner is the length, the thickness of the foam around your ankle is going to be the same after they’re molded, no matter what size the liner is, as they’re all made with the same thickness of foam.

    If we were talking about non molded liners then different story.

  63. BigD April 5th, 2009 6:46 pm

    Lou,

    First time on your site. Very cool. Mucho beta. I’m looking to add to my dated quiver which currently consists of Atomic TM22 w/ Silveretta Easy-Go, BD Crossbows (1st generation) w/ Fritschi F3 (Explore?) and Lowa Structuras (1st gen 03-04 I believe?). Want a bit wider board and new boots but also am a “light is right” believer. Ready to take advantage of end-of-season sales and pull the trigger on K2 Baker Superlights, Dynafits and Scarpa F3s.

    Question – How will the “wish-list” set up compare to what I now own. Specifically, the boots. I like skiing the Lowas but am curious about their stiffness relative to the F3s? (Understand the binding/boot incompatibility issues.) Also, is it possible to refit the Intuition liners (found a killer deal on slightly used F3s)? Another boot option would be the Spirit 3 or 4 but would rather save the weight if possible. Your input (or anybody else’s) is much appreciated.

  64. BigD April 13th, 2009 7:59 pm

    Lou –

    Found a great deal on some F3s at Craig’s List and had to act. Bought the boots, Superlights and some TLT Vertical STs. Guess I’ll make my own comparison test at this point.

    Realize you’ve been enjoying a great trip and not much time respond. Thanks non-the-less for a very informative site.

  65. Lou April 14th, 2009 5:22 am

    BigD, the Structura is not known as a beefy boot, so the F3 should easily equal it. Intuition liners can be re-molded a number of times, and usually work ok in various shells that are of similar size. Enjoy your F3 and let us know how it works.

  66. Niall April 24th, 2009 9:41 am

    Lou,

    Any thoughts on the F3 vs the Dynafit Zzero 3C? I am assuming the F3 is better for long tours and the dynafit 3C is better for skiing. You seem to really like the Zzero 4C just wondering on your thoughts on the 3C compared to the F3.

    Any problems with the F3 bellows and boots crampons?

    Thanks

  67. SweatJoe May 13th, 2009 3:49 am

    I bought the F3′s 2 months ago, have them on 5 ski tours. At firrst, they seemed perfect, but then, during hot May tours I started to have problems with blisters on the inner side of the foot and also on the heel. Despite the fact that the boot (intuition) has been cooked to fit my leg. So I was a little bit dissapointed. I thing the reason of blisters is the bend and also a hot weather (totaly wet socks)…
    Does anybody have similar problems?

  68. Lou May 13th, 2009 8:55 am

    Sweat, don’t totally blame those blisters on the boot, it’s really hard to keep from blistering when using non breathing liners in the heat. Try changing socks several times a day, and apply foot powder in the morning. During breaks, perhaps pull your boots off and dry your feet. I’ve had some success with stabbing a bunch of holes in my liners with a small sharp knife, to help them breath more.

    After that, it’s true that a different brand or model of boot MIGHT help, but chances are you can lick the problem by keeping your feet drier and perhaps working more on the fit, and how you buckle the boots while touring.

    Niall, when I’m actually mountaineering and doing things such as steep snow climbing, I prefer a non-flexing boot. I only like the bellows boots for long low-angled tours.

  69. Nate Porter December 4th, 2009 9:53 pm

    Thanks all for the great info. on this thread. I just got a pr. of F3′s I plan on using with TLT Vert ST’s and TLT Speeds. I have checked out all the info. on shimming the F3, but can’t find any mention of what I’m running into. It appears as though the tall Scarpa shim meant for the Vert ST prevents the boot heel from sitting flat on the binding while in flat touring mode. The sole under the bellows looks like it’s roughly the same height off the ski topsheet whether in flat tour mode or locked heel mode- about 14mm. I know the tall Scarpa shim is supposed to be 12mm, but the ones that came with these boots are more like 15mm. Is the shim meant to be removed if one wants to use flat tour mode? Or is it expected that one just uses the first elevated climbing position when using a shim? Overall, the height of the boot sole off the ski is similar enough between flat tour mode and locked heel mode that a suitable shim can be made. With the Speed, however, the difference in boot sole height off the ski is bigger- about 3-4mm in flat tour, and 8mm in locked heel mode. Same thing with the low Scarpa shim- it keeps the boot heel way off the ski when in flat tour mode. It seems like the binding should be usable in all the tour modes, including flat, with the shim installed. Am I missing something? Anybody have any experience with this? Thanks.

  70. Lou December 4th, 2009 10:09 pm

    What you want to do is install a shim that’ll keep your boot bellows from lost of sagging when in alpine mode. But a few millimeters of sag is ok. And yes, if you have it set up this way, with FT of ST you’re going to get some problem when going in heel-flat-on-ski mode (low touring postion). To fix that, install another shim under your heel that your heel can rest on when in the low touring position, after the ball of your foot contact the shim. You can allow the boot to bend down on this a millimeter or two.

    Same setup is used with Speed /TLT to get it working really nicely.

    I’m still a fan of F3 for long flatter touring, but for most people a bellows boot is totally unnecessary and just adds extra hassle per above. North Americans seem to be way too obsessed with having a bit of bend in the metatarsal. Everyone from Messner to Karnicar have done amazing things with rigid sole boots. Keep that in mind.

  71. Nate Porter December 5th, 2009 11:15 pm

    Lou, thanks for the info. At first, this whole shim business was putting me off the F3, but there are some good options. Interesting to note that a Speed/F3 shimmed properly for downhill mode (5-6mm) puts the heel of the boot at the same height off the ski as with a Vert ST or Comfort designed for brakes. With the F3/Vert ST, the boot sole is basically the same height off the ski top at the bellows in both downhill and flat tour mode, about 12-13mm. This means that a shim could be made that would work for both downhill and flat tour mode, without having to also shim the heel. I think Andrew and Mike Kaz suggest this above. The height differences on the Speed mean more of a compromise shim height for the bellows, or to shim the heel also.

    I know you consider the F3 to be a low angle touring boot, and feel that that bellows flex too much using high heel rise. Coming from a tele background, this flex doesn’t bother me- most tele’ers can probably feel something similar when using high heel lift. Rather than sap energy, I think it gives a nice little return in stride efficiency. Maybe it’s a slight loss of energy on steeper terrain, but over the whole day, all terrain considered, I’ll take a bellows. The rando race crowd wouldn’t use bellows boots if they weren’t efficient :smile: I’m a big fan of the T2X, which seems to be basically the same as the F3. The flexes feel roughly comparable in the bellows. The cuff heights are enough to get the job done going down, without being too much to tour and hike with. And the place I like a bellows the most is hiking up or down those never ending dirt road approaches, or long tours on-snow. Great to have so many gear options these days, whatever your tastes.

  72. Jonathan Shefftz December 6th, 2009 7:50 am

    I used the F3 with both Speed/Classic bindings and the Comfort (same stand height as the Vertical, and same toe base plate too). With both setups, I used the respective Scarpa sliding shims. With the Comfort in flat touring mode, the larger sliding shim was set up perfectly so that the F3 heel rested on the little binding heel cup, as it should. With the Speed/Classic in flat touring mode, I needed to mount the little heel shim/platform that came with the binding.
    Quick summary though is that binding + boot + shims worked exactly as designed.

  73. Nate Porter December 6th, 2009 8:40 am

    Johnathan, that’s what I have, and both the short and tall shims keep the heel way off the flat tour mode on their respective bindings. Both shims I have measure thicker than the should, according to what they’re labeled. The short (8mm) is more like 10-11mm, and the tall (12mm) is more like 15mm. Maybe you have different shims than I do? Sounds like we both have the slide in shims, though. Wasn’t there a set of screw on versions before the slide ins?

  74. Lou December 6th, 2009 1:03 pm

    A lot of rando racers do not use bellows boots (though, yes, a majority do). The carbon fiber boots have little flex to none, and are very popular. Like I always say, bellows perhaps adds a bit of comfort and efficiency to low angled striding. But nothing else is gained. If you’re feeling a springy feel on the high heel lift, all that does is sap energy. Anything else is psychological. Also good to remember that the greatest alpinists in the world have for years used boots with little to no metatarsal flex for amazing achievements. Thus, if you’re a ski alpinist and end up climbing without skis, a stiff soled boot obviously works just fine for that as well.

    All that said, if bellows flex is what floats your boat, then fine. But if you’re diddling around with shims and compromising boot release performance just to have a slightly flexing bellows so your boot feels like a tele boot when you’re touiring, that would seem to be placing the cart before the horse.

    I should add that I do own both F1s and F3s and do use them a bit, but mostly for slogging and not that often because I try to avoid slogging, or use my snowmobile for it when possible.

    Oh, and one other thing, rando racing is quite a bit different than ski mountaineering…

  75. Greg December 6th, 2009 1:57 pm

    I’ve been trying to find the answer to this question on wildsnow but without luck, so I’ll throw it out there. I use the Scarpa F1/Dynafit comfort with a shim of course. But I don’t use brakes, so when I’m clipped into alpine mode the heel is supported only by the heel piece pins. There is at least 1cm between the heel of my boot and the ski. Is this okay or should I have additional support under the heal of my boot? It seems to ski just fine but I’m worried that I’m putting excessive stress on the heel piece of the binding. Thanks in advance to anyone that can clear this up for me.

  76. Jonathan Shefftz December 6th, 2009 7:15 pm

    ” There is at least 1cm between the heel of my boot and the ski. Is this okay…?”
    – Yes. Hard to believe, but yes, it’s okay. Just like trusting that minimal toepiece.

    Back to the bellows. I just measured my two sets of slide-in shims, and got similar measurements as yours. I always thought they worked very well for cradling the entire forebody of the boot sole, and hence improved the downhill performance. Bu the screw-on shims are still available, and you can also make your own out of LDPE (smallparts.com), or even hack up various tele binding heel platforms.

  77. Greg December 6th, 2009 9:08 pm

    Thanks Jonathan. I suppose you’re right about my estimation of the distance. That’s what happens when an American tries to use the metric system.

  78. ffelix January 4th, 2010 11:54 pm

    Old thread, but no one seems to have followed up on the questions about crampons on the F-1 & F-3, so here’s some input:

    Since the F-1s first came out, I’ve used both boots extensively for ski touring in the Alps. I use lightweight aluminum step-in crampons, mostly on snow, but on occasionally on patches of rock & blue ice, as well.

    No problems. Never had a crampon fall off or loosen, no trouble kicking steps or placing feet. Some of those tours were steep & hard, too.

    I’m not a basher, though, so YMMV. You tend to be more careful with aluminum crampons than you would be with steel.

  79. Skip November 15th, 2010 6:52 pm

    I used my new Scarpa F3 boots yesterday for the 1st time with new Dynafit Speed bindings. The boots came with one set of spacer shims that are mounted under the boot bellows. I notice that there are 2 heights of shim sold. I suspect that using the wrong height shim will affect binding performance ( I suspect that I have the taller 12mm shim, not the 8mm shim) which is preventing the binding from sucessfully locking the toe in skinning mode. In the uphill mode I am easily releasing from the toes of the binding when doing kick turns and sidehilling on hard snow. Could this release be to using the wrong ht shim? i read that a 8mm shim should be used w/ the F3 boot and Speed binding.

  80. Lou November 15th, 2010 7:04 pm

    Skip, the shim is designed to keep the boot from sagging downward while in alpine mode. It has little to do with touring, unless you are touring with the lowest heel setting. In that case, it may gently push up on the sole of the boot as your heel drops to the lowest walking/touring position, which is a few mm lower than alpine mode position. Sounds like you should have a professional look at your setup. Lou

  81. Jonathan Shefftz November 15th, 2010 7:07 pm

    Actually, Lou, if I’m reading Skip’s description correctly, sounds like the problem is indeed caused by the shim: he seems to be [incorrectly] using the Comfort/Vertical shim instead of the Speed/Classic shim, which could very well cause all sorts of problems with the toe release.

  82. Greg Louie November 15th, 2010 7:12 pm

    Assuming Skip has the lever pulled up a few clicks into touring position, it’s pretty quick to check with a ruler and get a definitive answer re: which shim he has. I’m also guessing the thicker shim is putting upward pressure on the toe . . .

  83. Lou November 15th, 2010 7:41 pm

    Jonathan and Greg, indeed, thanks for your take! Long day here… I’d indeed guess he’s using too thick a shim, as too thin would make no dif except for causing the boot to sag while in alpine mode.

  84. Skip November 16th, 2010 10:37 am

    Thanx for the comments you all.
    Imagine this, the problem ended up being operator error! Putting the ski up on the bench made my foibles obvious. The shim is a few mm’s below the boot sole, correctly preventing sag.

    I needed to get that last click into locked mode “broken in”, the plastic was really stiff and it didnt want to go into that final locked position for the first time. Now that I’ve done it 3 or 4 times, the toe seems to go into locked mode quite easily…..So Jonathan & Greg, I forgot to measure my shim thickness to test my original hypothesis, that the shim was too tall and it was causing the toe to malfunction. I will try and remember tonite to measure the height of the one shim that came with my F3s.

  85. Graham January 23rd, 2014 10:02 am

    I hope that the positive reviews of F3′s remain, as I have just purchased a pair (new), and fitted to bindings/skis.

    The approx 1cm gap between the heel and binding base when in downhill mode looks extremely stressful on the rear binding. The heel is floating on air, supported only by the binding pins (as commented above). TLT Speed Turns have a plastic base, and the binding body is also plastic. Downward pressure on the boot (eg: skiing) will put considerable stress on the binding.

    To me it makes complete sense to place a shim between the boot heel and the ski/binding. That way the weight and forces are transferred directly into the ski and not the binding. I will do this.

    Given that my comment is now 6years since the start this thread, I wonder if there are any observations on the performance of F3′s in this regard?

  86. louis dawson January 23rd, 2014 10:59 am

    Graham, don’t over think it.

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